Topping D90SE Review (Balanced DAC)

[Katji]

yes but you dont see schiit engineers in the comments bashing customers saying "we thing the customers are sabotaging units" like john did in threads when that was happening. its a reason for concern . it was so easy to fix but now it will live with them for some time due to customer treatment. everyone makes mistakes and topping is a great company but things should be aloud to be pointed out just like people bash schiit on here regularly and thats fine.

Second time. The deal-breaker is the disrespectful grammar/punctuation. For me it fux up credibility.
I doubt that John said "we thing that", anyway.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Every time someone reproduces your comments or alleged improper behavior to customers your only reaction is: "it wasn't me".

Where are the sources? Just random quotes not even right sentences and from place I have not been to since 2019?

 

[Veri]

Three points that are forgotten in this MQA discussion.
I don't think the fees for the MQA seal per device are that high.
For the manufacturer, the costs of manufacturing and selling 2 devices (with and without MQA) would be significantly more expensive. The different labeling of the housings alone, each with only half the amount, would be more expensive and time-consuming.
In addition, most MQA devices use the newer XMOS chip XU-216 instead of the old XU-208.

Side point, XU-208 is no longer manufactured so once retail partners run out, XU-216 will be the only option. Designing new products around older 208 now, doesn't make much sense

 

[vkvedam]

The few buyers they loose would be worth the much better margin they have. MQA costs are very little compared to bump in retail pricing.

There is demand for MQA anyway so it is not a given that this is net negative.

I am still a bit perplexed about your stand on MQA @amirm, knowing that it's not needed and no different to a HiRes stream as long as you have the bandwidth to support. Not accounting for the downsides the MQA brings with it.

 

[WolfX-700]

I noticed that there is dissatisfaction with the design of the top DAC in the post-I also complained a lot. I once talked to them about this topic and it is obvious that they have been constantly struggling technically and have achieved unquestionable achievements. I believe that one day they will notice the value of the design to the product-I also hope that their products will still be able to maintain a not so high price by then.

 

[TheTalbotHound]

The default should be F3 as shown in the graph.

Why did you pick filter 3 over filter 5 as the default? Both seem like joint best choices out of the 7 filters, but i'm guessing one is linear phase and the other is minimum phase.

 

[charleski]

24 bit is 144 dB SINAD and I think is physically impossible to reach outside Academia.

If the signal is passed through a single 1kohm resistor and we want a bandwidth of 20kHz, we get a thermal noise of sqrt(4*kb*T*1000*20000)Vrms.
If we want this noise to be 144dB below a 4Vrms output, then the temperature needs to be
T = 4*10^-14.4/(kb*1000*20000)
= ~58K = -215C
If we settle for liquid nitrogen cooling, which will get you to around 77K, then we can get approximately 142dB. And this is just for one resistor.

Of course, it's entirely possible I've flubbed the calculation here, but you aren't going to get 144dB without some serious superconductors.

 

[bboris77]

@JohnYang1997, while this is clearly a statement DAC in terms of its performance, I am not convinced that it is worth the price premium over the D30 Pro ($399 vs $899). I’m sure many enthusiasts will be comparing the two and try to justify paying more than two times the price of the D30 Pro to get the D90 SE. I mean the D30 Pro is already well above the threshold of transparency and has most of the features of its bigger brother.

How much of the D90SE price is the luxury tax for having to have the top performing DAC and how much is down to the cost of components and additional features? I know you are not a marketing person and may not be able to answer this, but the high price has been mentioned a few times already here. I am aware that other manufacturers charge a lot more for similar performing devices, so my question is specifically in relation to the value proposition of the D90 SE in comparison to your own D30 Pro.

 

[Roland68]

Side point, XU-208 is no longer manufactured so once retail partners run out, XU-216 will be the only option. Designing new products around older 208 now, doesn't make much sense

And yet Topping has built the first D90 version without MQA with the XU-208 chip. Dto. also Gustard with the A18, first version with XU-208 chip.
The XU-216 had been around for over 2 years.
Why should you install the more expensive chip when it is not needed? It says "XMOS" on it, that's important.

 

[slamman]

Where are the sources? Just random quotes not even right sentences and from place I have not been to since 2019?

i corrected the statement to say hifiguides. like i said i will not derail this thread. however the way you talk to your customers has been unacceptable, and permanently damaged toppings credibility for some people outside of the engineering mistakes that destroyed headphones, many people mention in many threads. if you dont care fine i wont argue with you here.

 

[Helicopter]

@JohnYang1997, while this is clearly a statement DAC in terms of its performance, I am not convinced that it is worth the price premium over the D30 Pro ($399 vs $899). I’m sure many enthusiasts will be comparing the two and try to justify paying more than two times the price of the D30 Pro to get the D90 SE. I mean the D30 Pro is already well above the threshold of transparency and has most of the features of its bigger brother.

How much of the D90SE price is the luxury tax for having to have the top performing DAC and how much is down to the cost of components and additional features? I know you are not a marketing person and may not be able to answer this, but the high price has been mentioned a few times already here. I am aware that other manufacturers charge a lot more for similar performing devices, so my question is specifically in relation to the value proposition of the D90 SE in comparison to your own D30 Pro.

Don't forget that sweet orange display on D30. D90SE looks better in silver, but D30 in black has the edge.

 

[muslhead]

Can you please share how you know such information?

The difference between the D90 MQA and non-MQA versions was quite significant.

If i remember correctly the price difference was $50 which equates to between a 5-10% price bump for MQA (depending upon which price you use --- it was increased a few times)

 

[muslhead]

@JohnYang1997, while this is clearly a statement DAC in terms of its performance, I am not convinced that it is worth the price premium over the D30 Pro ($399 vs $899). I’m sure many enthusiasts will be comparing the two and try to justify paying more than two times the price of the D30 Pro to get the D90 SE. I mean the D30 Pro is already well above the threshold of transparency and has most of the features of its bigger brother.

How much of the D90SE price is the luxury tax for having to have the top performing DAC and how much is down to the cost of components and additional features? I know you are not a marketing person and may not be able to answer this, but the high price has been mentioned a few times already here. I am aware that other manufacturers charge a lot more for similar performing devices, so my question is specifically in relation to the value proposition of the D90 SE in comparison to your own D30 Pro.

This is a great question but if you think any rational business will provide you this information (especially posted on a public forum) you clearly have never run a business (unless its non profit or goverment contracts only). No disrespect meant but the obsession with pricing here is nucking futs. IF you dont like it ... move on.

 

[abdo123]

If i remember correctly the price difference was $50 which equates to between a 5-10% price bump for MQA (depending upon which price you use --- it was increased a few times)

it was a 100 euro for me on audiophonics.com which was a 13% bumb. It's the biggest premium a user has ever paid for an audio codec, infact tens and hundreds of magnitudes higher. IT'S INSANE.

 

[JohnYang1997]

i corrected the statement to say hifiguides. like i said i will not derail this thread. however the way you talk to your customers has been unacceptable, and permanently damaged toppings credibility for some people outside of the engineering mistakes that destroyed headphones, many people mention in many threads. if you dont care fine i wont argue with you here.

Ok. Hifi guides. I wanted to go there to explain something but at that point the bias was already too much and no matter what I say there's no way to be beneficial. And there were a few people who are so ignorant yet so confident that's not even funny. (like simply add fuse, ESD is very basic etc) So I addressed the obvious. But that wasn't received very well. So I said to myself why bother then I left. If you have the time, I recommend go through the original L30 thread as much as possible to see what really happened. I hate to say it but I really shouldn't assume people are rational and logical everywhere else.
Same thing is happening to MQA too. It's not even funny. They dismiss everything on the other party without actually learning the fundamentals.
We are logical, rational, helpful. That's why you see most people here have the opinions that they do. We love facts and evidence.

 

[JohnYang1997]

it was a 100 euro for me on audiophonics.com which was a 13% bumb. It's the biggest premium a user has ever paid for an audio codec, infact tens and hundreds of magnitudes higher. IT'S INSANE.

But sure Amir thinks it's insignificant so what do I know.

It was the effort to make MQA work and the component change plus the time to maintain two devices. If you just want the best of the best, this is clearly a bargain. If not this is also clearly not for you. There are many cheaper devices do the same or perhaps better jobs in other area. So choose those, no one is forced to buy this.

 

[bboris77]

This is a great question but if you think any rational business will provide you this information (especially posted on a public forum) you clearly have never run a business (unless its non profit or goverment contracts only). No disrespect meant but the obsession with pricing here is nucking futs. IF you dont like it ... move on.

1. Let's not make this about me and my ability to run a business. My question about the value proposition is legitimate. They don't have to answer it.

2. A non-answer is an answer as well.

3. Who are you to tell me to move on? Self-appointed forum bully?

 

[Helicopter]

I'd rather choose between black/silver than MQA/no-MQA. Totally makes sense you don't want 4 versions of the thing too.

Edit: I do hate MQA though... just don't have a big issue not using it.

 

[abdo123]

It was the effort to make MQA work and the component change plus the time to maintain two devices. If you just want the best of the best, this is clearly a bargain. If not this is also clearly not for you. There are many cheaper devices do the same or perhaps better jobs in other area. So choose those, no one is forced to buy this.

I just asked Amir for his source regarding MQA licensing fees. Since he seems to be throwing statements left and right without substantiation.

I also don't see how 'the extra cost is for the effort to make MQA work' makes this situation any better.

 

[kchap]

The D90 output voltage was not sufficient to drive a Nord 1ET400A Purifi amp with Sparkos SS2590 input buffers to full output. Adding an A90 resolved this. I believe this amp requires ~7.25 Vpeek-to-peak for maximum gain. If this is correct, neither will a D90SE at 5v output. I believe the input sensitivity of the Nord amp is similar to most other 1ET400A based amps.

7.25Vpp is around 2.5Vrms so the D90SE should have no issue driving the Nord to maximum power. I considered the Nord but I ended up buying a pair of March Audio P451s. The P451 uses the Purifi modules.