Topping D90SE Review (Balanced DAC)

[nelamvr6]

In the Gustard x16 thread, Gustard said don't use x16 as preamp if possible because the volume control is lossy. Gustard suggests using H16 as preamp as it is lossless.

I'm not familiar with that device. Does Gustard include the functionality of using the DAC as a preamp? If so, why would they do that if they believe that using that functionality will cause degradation of sound?

Topping has made no such statements regarding the D90SE.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I'm not familiar with that device. Does Gustard include the functionality of using the DAC as a preamp? If so, why would they do that if they believe that using that functionality will cause degradation of sound?

Topping has made no such statements regarding the D90SE.

Options for consumer. Many won't sense a difference anyway.

@JohnYang1997, can you confirm if d90se volume control is lossy or lossless?

 

[ThomasMac]

I was thinking the same thing but instead I got the Pre90. I would like to hear a tube preamp but the owner manual of my amp says that there not recommended for it.

Interesting. Never heard of a power amplifier manufacturer specific say to not use a tube preamplifier. I'm sure the pre 90 is good though.
I have active speakers and needed a pre amp for them. Freya + is probably a little over kill for my set up. Was considering the pre90 but I like to make my life more difficult.

 

[enricoclaudio]

I see no problem using the Freya + with D90SE. The Freya + switch between passive, differential buffer, and differential tube gain modes. Just use passive or differential buffer gain modes and you should be fine. I had one in my rack for 2 ch listening but gave it to my son in law after getting the Parasound Halo P6. The Freya + in differential buffer gain mode was my favorite out of the three modes.

 

[Eddy H.]

You have been misinformed. There is absolutely no reason to assume that it would "probably" sound better, but plenty of reasons to believe that if anything, another device in the signal chain would "probably" cause degradation of the sound quality. This is even more obvious if you can connect to the amp via balanced interconnects.

If he is an objectivist, he would do well to believe the science and hook the D90SE directly to his amp. If he's a subjectivist, he could conduct his own experiments and hear for himself.

I use the preamp because when I listen at low level -40db I didn't get the same dynamics.

 

[Eddy H.]

Interesting. Never heard of a power amplifier manufacturer specific say to not use a tube preamplifier. I'm sure the pre 90 is good though.
I have active speakers and needed a pre amp for them. Freya + is probably a little over kill for my set up. Was considering the pre90 but I like to make my life more difficult.

I have a Kinky Studios EX-M7 that is a direct couple amplifier

 

[ThomasMac]

I have a Kinky Studios EX-M7 that is a direct couple amplifier

I have a lot to learn.

 

[JohnYang1997]

The only preamp that I know of does not degrade performance of D90se is Pre90. And Pre90 is not doing much better either. D90se only has 1.3uV(20-22khz no weighting) or 1uV a-wt of noise. If you have a preamp with higher noise, of course you'd be having worse performance.
If you are worry about pop and clicks etc, you are all good to use a preamp.

 

[JohnYang1997]

@gvl I don't want to derail the D5 thread. The point was why was D90se got compared to when there are better cheaper alternatives to D5 than D90se.
About D90se itself... It's literally the best performing audio DAC that I know of in the world. Doesn't that justify the price? You can ask someone else for 4 times the money to produce something better, but can they do it?

 

[Eddy H.]

What does everyone think about the DSD play back with the D90SE? I think it does a great job myself.

 

[nelamvr6]

What does everyone think about the DSD play back with the D90SE? I think it does a great job myself.

I can find no fault with the DSD playback. In fact, I can find no faults at all with any aspect of this DAC's performance.

 

[Eddy H.]

Can anyone tell if one of the inputs sound better than the others? Just curious.

 

[nelamvr6]

Can anyone tell if one of the inputs sound better than the others? Just curious.

I've only ever used the USB input.

 

[Snoopy]

What exactly does the topping D90SE offer that the Gustard x16 or soncoz SGD1 (just as example) don't?

Price difference is around 400€.

 

[JohnYang1997]

What exactly does the topping D90SE offer that the Gustard x16 or soncoz SGD1 (just as example) don't?

Price difference is around 400€.

Top tier performance?
If that's not so important why not look at ex5, e50, or d10 balanced even, depending on the features needed. Those are only cheaper right?

 

[Snoopy]

Top tier performance?
If that's not so important why not look at ex5, e50, or d10 balanced even, depending on the features needed. Those are only cheaper right?

Yeah but better parts? Better engeniering , buildquality?

 

[BlackTalon]

Yeah but better parts? Better engeniering , buildquality?

What do you think a designer for Topping's products is going to say in response to this?

 

[JohnYang1997]

Yeah but better parts? Better engeniering , buildquality?

What does "better parts" provide?
Better engineering, probably.
Build quality, as long you don't define heavier as better build quality then yeah. E50 and EX5 are better built with more strict cosmetic quality control. You'll see way less cosmetic flaws than majority of competitors. Sometimes it's embarrassing to see those.

 

[galgogergo]

The only preamp that I know of does not degrade performance of D90se is Pre90. And Pre90 is not doing much better either. D90se only has 1.3uV(20-22khz no weighting) or 1uV a-wt of noise. If you have a preamp with higher noise, of course you'd be having worse performance.
If you are worry about pop and clicks etc, you are all good to use a preamp.

May I ask @JohnYang1997, just out of curiosity, what volume control method the D90SE is using?

Like Pre90 is analog, it's probably a ladder-resistor system with relays/multiplexer or similar to make the switching between the resistors. (And possibly using impedance boosting or something in the end of the chain to overcome as much dynamic loss as possible, by making output impedance the same across all volume steps)
Most DACs use digital volume attenuation, which is "lossy". If you turn it reaaaally down, you use some detail, since you are lessening/decreasing bit depth.
There are some other DACs, which use a hybrid solution, by having a couple of larger steps in the analog domain, switched via relays, and compensating the smaller steps with digital attenuation in between. This, in theory, is also lossy", but usually no human ear hears 1 or 2 bits of decrease in the digital domain, ever in real life. (And it's never more than that, since then the relays kick in, and switch to the next bigger step.)

Now the question is, which of these three does Topping use in their D90SE?

 

[gags11]

What exactly does the topping D90SE offer that the Gustard x16 or soncoz SGD1 (just as example) don't?

Price difference is around 400€.

D90SE has a 5.2 volt 100ohm output vs 4v 300ohm for Gustard and 4volt 200ohm for the Soncoz.
When you have a low gain amp with relatively low input impedance, as in my case, the lower impedance and higher voltage could make a big difference.

Edit: I would also consider Schiit Modius at $199 as just a DAC before considering either the Gustart or Soncoz. Sure having a sinad of 113-115 is still transparent.