Topping D90SE Review (Balanced DAC)

[raif71]

Pssst, manufacturers are in the business to make money. What they make on each part is their business and their job as all good capitalist is to make as much as they can on each item they sell. I do not understand this obession in this forum with margin and profits. If you dont like the price move along.

Perhaps objectively, this is the logical move ie move along if one cannot afford or price doesn't make sense but being human with wants/needs/hopes, yes some will be emotional when wanting expensive stuff

 

[Rover]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping D90SE flagship balanced USB DAC. It was sent to me by the company for testing and I believe costs US $899.
Appreciate any donations using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

Hello.What do you think about the problem of sound loss on the digital inputs of the D90SE .Why there is a loss of sound on the optical, coaxial and i2s digital inputs of the D90SE.Is it possible to measure this in your laboratory?

 

[Roland68]

looking inside, what does it cost here?(parts for $ 200)

When someone says something like that, you know for sure that they have no idea what costs arise in a company that have to be paid for every device sold and the components are only a small part of it.
As I said before, this "Avarice is cool" mentality leads to the fact that the share of development in the products continues to decline, just like the quality. You can see that on many devices in the consumer area.
What do you think what is more important that someone drops a few reputable components in one device? or that the device was developed sensibly and with the necessary time and tests?

It is interesting that the same customers buy products in other areas (or in the high-priced hi-fi area) whose material content is well below 10%, often even below 5%.
With such a device, the entire material content is well over 30% of the retail price, as a manufacturer I ask myself how it can be worth it at all.

Imagine you work or develop something for 1 year and at the end your customers come to you and say "Of course I will pay you for the parts, but the remaining costs and your time are not my problem".
You're sure to scream hurray, aren't you?

In addition, taxes for the government of the respective country in which it is sold (+/- 20%) + import duties, + transport, and the manufacturer also has to pay various taxes in his country, go from the sales price of the device . So the manufacturer and the sales outlets only have about $ 700 of the originally paid amount (approx. $ 900) to cover all costs.

Rent of the rooms for office, production, warehouse and dispatch, electricity, office equipment and devices, development devices (e.g. APx555B from Audio Precision), development software and computers, warehouse equipment, production machines and tools, packaging and packaging material, and much more.
In addition, there are the costs and salaries for all employees of this company, especially the development engineers.
A company has to pay these costs every month (in a company with 10-12 employees that can easily reach over $ 50,000 / month), regardless of whether it makes a profit or a loss.

Let's not forget the development costs (time, material, engineers, prototypes, development devices and the environment), which with such a device can easily be in the 6-digit range, i.e. over $ 100,000 or much more. And if you do not collect these costs with the device, then that is a minus on the company account, because the costs for it have arisen in real terms.

Such a housing is only affordable in quantities (from several hundred to several thousand pieces). A single housing, complete with all parts, anodizing and labeling, would cost more than the device.
And here comes the point that the manufacturer has to pay several hundred thousand dollars in advance for the production of such a device (housing, circuit boards, components, assembly, tests and quality control, packaging). It takes months or years to get the money back, and he has to pay interest on it.

 

[Sisay]

Thank you for your answer

 

[muslhead]

When someone says something like that, you know for sure that they have no idea what costs arise in a company that have to be paid for every device sold and the components are only a small part of it.
As I said before, this "Avarice is cool" mentality leads to the fact that the share of development in the products continues to decline, just like the quality. You can see that on many devices in the consumer area.
What do you think what is more important that someone drops a few reputable components in one device? or that the device was developed sensibly and with the necessary time and tests?

It is interesting that the same customers buy products in other areas (or in the high-priced hi-fi area) whose material content is well below 10%, often even below 5%.
With such a device, the entire material content is well over 30% of the retail price, as a manufacturer I ask myself how it can be worth it at all.

Imagine you work or develop something for 1 year and at the end your customers come to you and say "Of course I will pay you for the parts, but the remaining costs and your time are not my problem".
You're sure to scream hurray, aren't you?

In addition, taxes for the government of the respective country in which it is sold (+/- 20%) + import duties, + transport, and the manufacturer also has to pay various taxes in his country, go from the sales price of the device . So the manufacturer and the sales outlets only have about $ 700 of the originally paid amount (approx. $ 900) to cover all costs.

Rent of the rooms for office, production, warehouse and dispatch, electricity, office equipment and devices, development devices (e.g. APx555B from Audio Precision), development software and computers, warehouse equipment, production machines and tools, packaging and packaging material, and much more.
In addition, there are the costs and salaries for all employees of this company, especially the development engineers.
A company has to pay these costs every month (in a company with 10-12 employees that can easily reach over $ 50,000 / month), regardless of whether it makes a profit or a loss.

Let's not forget the development costs (time, material, engineers, prototypes, development devices and the environment), which with such a device can easily be in the 6-digit range, i.e. over $ 100,000 or much more. And if you do not collect these costs with the device, then that is a minus on the company account, because the costs for it have arisen in real terms.

Such a housing is only affordable in quantities (from several hundred to several thousand pieces). A single housing, complete with all parts, anodizing and labeling, would cost more than the device.
And here comes the point that the manufacturer has to pay several hundred thousand dollars in advance for the production of such a device (housing, circuit boards, components, assembly, tests and quality control, packaging). It takes months or years to get the money back, and he has to pay interest on it.

Lets also not forget selling consumer electronic goods has little to nothing to do with cost. For those with any experience you will know that virtually everything (at least in US) for these products is market driven price. Cost + pricing is only done with government contracts and not done on consumer goods. The manufacture sets the price based up what the market will bear not what someone on ASR can afford.

 

[Roland68]

Lets also not forget selling consumer electronic goods has little to nothing to do with cost. For those with any experience you will know that virtually everything (at least in US) for these products is market driven price. Cost + pricing is only done with government contracts and not done on consumer goods. The manufacture sets the price based up what the market will bear not what someone on ASR can afford.

I totally agree with you.
But it's sad that so many users believe that the elementary part of a device is the component price, maybe just ignorance ...

Two things bother me about a post like this, especially with devices like the D90se.
1. Very few devices on the market have such a high proportion of material in relation to the sales price.
2. Just as few devices show such high / new development and engineering achievements. You usually see something like that in devices in significantly higher price ranges.

But there are a lot of DACs on the market (including on Aliexpress) with the ES9038pro or similar for $ 300 or so, and with at least $ 200 parts. They also have a lot of sparkling components (very important). Components / development effort 90/10%? or rather 95/5%?
Sound great. I have already listened to these devices twice at the proud owners. Strangely enough, they have tears in their eyes when you connect, for example, a 100, - $ Topping DAC, or something similar. And those weren't tears of joy.

 

[Snoopy]

It's nice that Chinese companies not only copy western stuff but actually do their own thing and often enough even better and cheaper these days.

Only a couple of years ago I would have never thought that I would pick a Chinese headphone amplifier over a western brand.

 

[Billy Budapest]

Hello.What do you think about the problem of sound loss on the digital inputs of the D90SE .Why there is a loss of sound on the optical, coaxial and i2s digital inputs of the D90SE.Is it possible to measure this in your laboratory?

What do you mean by sound loss? Is there some sort of muting going on, like you can’t hear anything from those inputs? Perhaps your unit is defective.

 

[nhs]

What do you mean by sound loss? Is there some sort of muting going on, like you can’t hear anything from those inputs? Perhaps your unit is defective.

I think, he meant "dropouts".

 

[Billy Budapest]

I think, he meant "dropouts".

Oh, I understand!

Sounds like his unit is defective.

 

[Snoopy]

I think, he meant "dropouts".

Oh, I understand!

Sounds like his unit is defective.

Dropouts usually happen when there is a audio sync issue with the streamer.

Apple has that problem for example when I use the optical out of my LG TV. But the problem goes away when I use airplay

 

[ThomasMac]

Jumping in on this thread... cant find anyone who has used a d90 se with the schiit freya +.
Does anyone feel this combo would be a interesting match?

 

[Eddy H.]

Jumping in on this thread... cant find anyone who has used a d90 se with the schiit freya +.
Does anyone feel this combo would be a interesting match?

I was thinking the same thing but instead I got the Pre90. I would like to hear a tube preamp but the owner manual of my amp says that there not recommended for it.

 

[nhs]

Just a question for my curiosity, is there any body who doesn't have an analog source but uses a preamp to pair with the D90SE and why?

 

[Eddy H.]

Just a question for my curiosity, is there any body who doesn't have an analog source but uses a preamp to pair with the D90SE and why?

I only have my D90SE hooked up to my preamp because I don't have any other analog sources.

 

[Eddy H.]

Interesting findings:
bluesound node (latest model) sounds a little better with MQA than flac 44.1 kH (Radio paradise).
And topping d90se sounds better than the internal dac of the bluesound node, this dac is a clear improvement in my system.
so I am keeping this dac. Sounds a bit more clear and brighter, more perceived detail yet very smooth. NOT Tiring at all! Very natural and realistic. Very happy with the sound. Good punchy bass and very good soundstage! I can recommend the investment in this external dac, even though the bluesound node (130) dac is supposed to be pretty good.

but the interesting fact is that the MQA version with the topping dac now sounds actually a little worse to my ears than flac 44.1.
can there be an explanation for that?

btw:
this Topping dac can’t take optical input from Samsung tv, too much jitter probably. But via the hdmi through the bluesound node no problem. No hickups in sound, so I am happy with this "solution".

My Vizio TVs optical works fine with my D90SE.

 

[nhs]

I only have my D90SE hooked up to my preamp because I don't have any other analog sources.

Why do you not hook up the poweramp directly to the D90SE?

 

[Snoopy]

Why do you not hook up the poweramp directly to the D90SE?

Probably sounds better to use the D90SE in DAC mode and control the volume through a pre-amp.

 

[nelamvr6]

Probably sounds better to use the D90SE in DAC mode and control the volume through a pre-amp.

You have been misinformed. There is absolutely no reason to assume that it would "probably" sound better, but plenty of reasons to believe that if anything, another device in the signal chain would "probably" cause degradation of the sound quality. This is even more obvious if you can connect to the amp via balanced interconnects.

If he is an objectivist, he would do well to believe the science and hook the D90SE directly to his amp. If he's a subjectivist, he could conduct his own experiments and hear for himself.

 

[Pdxwayne]

You have been misinformed. There is absolutely no reason to assume that it would "probably" sound better, but plenty of reasons to believe that if anything, another device in the signal chain would "probably" cause degradation of the sound quality. This is even more obvious if you can connect to the amp via balanced interconnects.

If he is an objectivist, he would do well to believe the science and hook the D90SE directly to his amp. If he's a subjectivist, he could conduct his own experiments and hear for himself.

In the Gustard x16 thread, Gustard said don't use x16 as preamp if possible because the volume control is lossy. Gustard suggests using H16 as preamp as it is lossless.