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Topping D90SE Measurements (DAC)

trl

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I see folks wondering or even not knowing about Cosmos ADC performance, but there is a dedicated thread for this ADC here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/e1da-cosmos-adc.27038/.

And a teardown here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/e1da-cosmos-adc-teardown.27967/. Notice the 199.9 dB SINAD on my Topping D90 MQA measured with this rather cheap & high performance ADC.

L.E.: To not forget about https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/best-spec-adc-chip-currently.13469/page-10.
 

trl

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don'ttrustauthority

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With a lot of patience, yes...

You should at least read the review first!:p
I was looking so hard for it I missed it.

So just buy that, install software and I can test my tube amp collection?
 

pma

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I was looking so hard for it I missed it.

So just buy that, install software and I can test my tube amp collection?
To test your tube amp collection, you can buy much cheaper equipment but rest of the money you will have to spend for education how to properly use it :).
 
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Hello Flanker,

Thank you for the review.

Since you are in France, I'm just curious if you had in your hands Atoll Électronique's Dad 100. I bought it a while back and it'd is still in my setup. I was just curious how it would compare with today's technology in terms of transparency as I don't have other reference.

One thing I like with the DAC I have is that it has multiple inputs, so you can switch from different devices.

Anyway, thanks for the review !
 

bennetng

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Awesome, thank you. I guess I will try 5 now. :)
The differences of filter ripples are totally expected, a programmed ESS behaviour, also confirmed in these posts:
 

oal

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@VintageFlanker, This is an excellent review. I have been looking for a high-performance ADC. I have one simple question. How did you measure with RCA? Did you use only GND and Hot pins of the XLR connector? Or, used the AUX jack?
 

staticV3

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How did you measure with RCA?
Here's the cable schematic to measure RCA DACs with the Cosmos in Stereo mode:
2021-11-08_11-09-17-1-1.jpg

And if you want to measure one RCA channel with both ADCs for 3dB lower noise, then you need this:
unknown-1-1.png
 
OP
VintageFlanker

VintageFlanker

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VintageFlanker

VintageFlanker

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Since you are in France, I'm just curious if you had in your hands Atoll Électronique's Dad 100. I bought it a while back and it'd is still in my setup. I was just curious how it would compare with today's technology in terms of transparency as I don't have other reference.
Salut salut,

Are you talking about this one or an earlier version?
I'm totally willing to measure one, maybe, if you would send yours to do so.;)
 

Rottmannash

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mdsimon2

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so this is why one shouldn't use these DAC's as pre's?

Why? Aren't those measurements exactly what you would expect with a digital volume control?

I think I would make the opposite claim, this DAC is so low noise that you can use it with the highest performing amplifiers (Purifi, Benchmark) and your overall system (DAC + amplifier) SNR will be governed by amplifier noise to the point that using an analog volume control will not give you any appreciable performance increase.

Michael
 

pma

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Why? Aren't those measurements exactly what you would expect with a digital volume control?

I think I would make the opposite claim, this DAC is so low noise that you can use it with the highest performing amplifiers (Purifi, Benchmark) and your overall system (DAC + amplifier) SNR will be governed by amplifier noise to the point that using an analog volume control will not give you any appreciable performance increase.

Michael
To give a serious answer, one needs to know DAC output noise voltage in uV measured over @22kHz BW flat. I do not think I have seen the measured parameter here. Then you multiply it with power amplifier gain and you have the output noise and limit of S/N of your chain. I have Topping D10s and it has 2uV output noise. With NC252MP with 26dB gain, I get 40uV noise. Worse than NC252MP alone. With SAB class AB with 30 dB Gain, I get about 64 uV noise. Again worse than SAB itself with its 26 uV noise. So the best S/N by far I get with D10s + stepped passive attenuator + SAB. And I do not think with D90 it would be different. Analog volume control gives the best noise results.
 

nagster

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so this is why one shouldn't use these DAC's as pre's?
??
I'm not good at English so I don't know exactly, but the D90SE is low noise enough so I think there is no problem if you choose an easy-to-use method.
However, if you are concerned about the measured value, it may be better to leave the attenuation to the preamplifier.
When I measured the THD+N, the D90SE (PRE mode) alone was better in the 0dB to 2dB range.
Below -2.5dB, D90SE (DAC mode) + Pre90 was better.

edit
"0dB to 2dB" is wrong and "0dB to -2dB" is correct.
 
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dsnyder0cnn

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I can hardly get better than this (and yep, colors changed:p):

View attachment 196095
That's about the same thing that I saw when I measured the Topping D90SE while comparing it to the Gustard X16:


Of course, you have much nicer equipment than me. Thanks for sharing these results. I agree, it's an amazing DAC.
 

mdsimon2

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To give a serious answer, one needs to know DAC output noise voltage in uV measured over @22kHz BW flat. I do not think I have seen the measured parameter here. Then you multiply it with power amplifier gain and you have the output noise and limit of S/N of your chain. I have Topping D10s and it has 2uV output noise. With NC252MP with 26dB gain, I get 40uV noise. Worse than NC252MP alone. With SAB class AB with 30 dB Gain, I get about 64 uV noise. Again worse than SAB itself with its 26 uV noise. So the best S/N by far I get with D10s + stepped passive attenuator + SAB. And I do not think with D90 it would be different. Analog volume control gives the best noise results.

But what is the practical difference? I can certainly see a ~1-2 dB SNR difference between analog and digital volume control at lower volume positions (depending on how low noise your analog volume control is) but is this worth worrying about when noise floor is already so low?

I built a simple spreadsheet to model amp + DAC noise to help me better understand. Here is a DAC with ~1.4 uV noise over 22 kHz BW (supported by both @nagster's and @Amir's measurements of the D90SE) and an amplifier with 25.6 dB gain, 35 uV noise over 22 kHz BW (roughly the best I've seen from NC252MP measurements). This assumes 4 V at 0 dB volume position which is why the plots are limited to -8 dB and below to avoid amplifier clipping. Orange is an analog volume control with 0.5 uV noise over 22 kHz BW and blue is a digital volume control.

At -30 dB volume position you are looking at -94.6 dB SNR for digital and -96.3 dB SNR for analog, is this difference worth worrying about?

24 bit data - SNR
1648917443519.png


16 bit data - SNR
1648917530933.png


Michael
 
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Billy Budapest

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B8AB427F-F53F-4FEA-A168-1DCC9A6A58EC.jpeg

That black crinkle finish looks really nice.

I think if Topping ever decided to make standard 19” wide audio components (as opposed to the desktop audio sized units in their current product portfolio), then if they scaled up the industrial design of the D90, D70, etc. series, including the rounded top and bottom edges and corners, they would have a winner and something really unique.

(Just a small departure from the measurement data focused discussion.)
 
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