Topping D900 DAC Review

[DrCWO]

and the next time he hear's somthing new - there will be new non existent improvements to be heard

And exactly this is what HiFi dealers live from. Also audio magazines promote this. That keeps business going on and on and on even if there‘s no more audible improvement. I wonder how long it will take unitl customers will understand…

 

[Max_fl]

I love how you, guys, discussing what I heard and what not What will you say if I tell you that when there was a Topping A90 Discrete as a preamp in the path I indeed didn't hear the difference (the reasons I had it are not important) and was a bit disappointed? But when I removed it and connected the DACs directly to the power amp I noticed it. It's not day and night of course, but enough to keep the D900.

 

[DrCWO]

I love how you, guys, discussing what I heard and what not

 

[Jimster480]

As you say
Although, whoever wants to buy my "broken" D90 III Discrete is welcome to DM.

There is a for sale section you can post it in, will get way more attention there.

 

[RandomEar]

I love how you, guys, discussing what I heard and what not

As far as I can read, it was specifically explained that your impression of there being a difference is 100% real. After all, nobody can tell you what you heard, felt or saw. It was also explained very well that the impression of a difference doesn't mean that one actually exists.

So, as far as I can see in the past couple of posts, nobody tried to tell you what you heard or did not hear. Fellow members simply pointed out that the data supports the fact that there is zero audible difference between these DACs.

If you are actually interested in finding out if your initial impression was correct or if the differences you think are there are just placebo, I encourage you to look into what is required for an unbiased and reliable comparison of audio devices. Primarily, that includes precise level-matching, blinding and instant switching.

Audio Blind Testing - You Are Doing It Wrong! (Video)

Just uploaded a video on the basics of performing controlled tests in audio. It was motivated by saving myself text in having to write all of this down when telling someone who to do these tests right. And as a counter to a few online personalities to keep saying they do "blind" tests yet when...

www.audiosciencereview.com

AES Paper Digest: Sensitivity and Reliability of ABX Blind Testing

This is abbreviated synopsis of the paper, Ten Years of ABX Testing, by David Clark: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5549 ABX testing as you may know is a double blind testing methodology aimed at determining if someone can reliably identify A from B. Both A and B are presented to the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Why is louder always better/preferred

This afternoon, I was home alone, I took advantage of the empty home to crank the volume higher than usual. I had a great time, from Norma Winstone to Norah Jones, with detour to Manzanera and Simon & Garfunkel, everything sounded spectacular and captivating. All the glorious detail and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Echoic memory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Gremlins]

I would add : re-do your test , you will discover that your impressions are now different than they were last time ...

 

[antcollinet]

I love how you, guys, discussing what I heard and what not What will you say if I tell you that when there was a Topping A90 Discrete as a preamp in the path I indeed didn't hear the difference (the reasons I had it are not important) and was a bit disappointed? But when I removed it and connected the DACs directly to the power amp I noticed it. It's not day and night of course, but enough to keep the D900.

We don't dispute what you heard. We are simply recognising that the reason for what you heard is different from what you think it is.

None of us have infinitely sensitive hearing, none of us have hearing with infinite bandwidth. And the differences between those DACS you describe are far below the limits of what you can hear. What any human can hear.

Yet we also know that our unconscious brain is easily able to alter what we hear based on all sorts of things other than the actual sound-waves reaching our ears.

It is why well controlled blind testing is ABSOLUTELY requried if you want to have any chance of understanding the reasons for what you hear.

 

[DrCWO]

It is why well controlled blind testing is ABSOLUTELY requried if you want to have any chance of understanding the reasons for what you hear.

Correct.

But why should someone who got a new gear, loves it and believes it sounds better destroy his joy by doing a blind ABX.
I guess it would make him sad. Maybe later but then his old gear was sold

 

[Max_fl]

We don't dispute what you heard. We are simply recognising that the reason for what you heard is different from what you think it is.

None of us have infinitely sensitive hearing, none of us have hearing with infinite bandwidth. And the differences between those DACS you describe are far below the limits of what you can hear. What any human can hear.

Yet we also know that our unconscious brain is easily able to alter what we hear based on all sorts of things other than the actual sound-waves reaching our ears.

It is why well controlled blind testing is ABSOLUTELY requried if you want to have any chance of understanding the reasons for what you hear.

Ok, how can you explain that I didn't hear the difference with a preamp then?

 

[RandomEar]

Ok, how can you explain that I didn't hear the difference with a preamp then?

Level differences, slightly different seating position, different mood on the day, different lighting in the room. It can literally be anything. Hearing is not a reliable sense and doesn't depend on sound only. Uncontrolled testing therefore does not give you reliable results for audio comparisons.

 

[antcollinet]

Ok, how can you explain that I didn't hear the difference with a preamp then?

Because the results of perceptive bias are not consistent. They are not linear processes. All sorts of things can influence them. Not just what you expect, or "the new shiney" Anything - including what you might have heard about a device - or what it looks like. Or whether you are in a good mood - or a bad one - had a drink, smoked a spliff. Are tired, are wired.

Etc Etc.

 

[Max_fl]

Ok, I see, even the weather on the Moon can influence my perception Although, for my testing I use the same selected pieces from Wagner and Tchaikovsky over and over again. I returned a lot of units regardless of the price because I know how my tracks should sound. I understand that this method is not ideal, but talking about the absence of differences even without seeing the dac is somewhat curious

 

[Jimster480]

Ok, I see, even the weather on the Moon can influence my perception Although, for my testing I use the same selected pieces from Wagner and Tchaikovsky over and over again. I returned a lot of units regardless of the price because I know how my tracks should sound. I understand that this method is not ideal, but talking about the absence of differences even without seeing the dac is somewhat curious

How can you "know how"? Especially when you are getting new gear that has much better performance than old gear?
The whole thing makes no sense.

I suggest you do some research and update your testing methodology.

 

[RandomEar]

Ok, I see, even the weather on the Moon can influence my perception Although, for my testing I use the same selected pieces from Wagner and Tchaikovsky over and over again. I returned a lot of units regardless of the price because I know how my tracks should sound. I understand that this method is not ideal, but talking about the absence of differences even without seeing the dac is somewhat curious

Your sarcasm and ignorance don't change how our hearing works. I'd rather recommend to read a bit more on that topic than continuing to be rude to fellow members on ASR. Your are testing incorrectly and instead of listening to advice and trying to learn you are being dismissive towards the people kindly trying to explain that to you. Do better.

Auditory Illusions - How your ears can be fooled | hear.com

Are your ears fooling you? You might be experiencing an auditory illusion. Learn about the McGurk Effect, The Shepard Illusion, and the Tritone Paradox.

www.hear.com

AES Paper Digest: Sensitivity and Reliability of ABX Blind Testing

This is abbreviated synopsis of the paper, Ten Years of ABX Testing, by David Clark: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5549 ABX testing as you may know is a double blind testing methodology aimed at determining if someone can reliably identify A from B. Both A and B are presented to the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Svend P]

Ok, I see, even the weather on the Moon can influence my perception Although, for my testing I use the same selected pieces from Wagner and Tchaikovsky over and over again. I returned a lot of units regardless of the price because I know how my tracks should sound. I understand that this method is not ideal, but talking about the absence of differences even without seeing the dac is somewhat curious

It's a bit funny how reviewers and manufacturers somehow have been able to convince consumers that a DAC is the most important component in a hi-fi system. The first post in this thread should give you some perspective:

Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

Hello friend. Hey, listen...we know how it is. Believe me, most of us have been there too. You've spent years toiling in the muck of audiophilia. You read ALL the reviews. You watched ALL the youtube videos. You visited ALL the other forums where everything always makes a difference. You...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Gremlins]

Ok, I see, even the weather on the Moon can influence my perception Although, for my testing I use the same selected pieces from Wagner and Tchaikovsky over and over again. I returned a lot of units regardless of the price because I know how my tracks should sound. I understand that this method is not ideal, but talking about the absence of differences even without seeing the dac is somewhat curious

It's all in your believes and you don't know you are in believing state when trying to ''test'' an audio gear. Before you test, deep inside your brain, you already have a believe about the gear you gonna listen, you have expectations.

Bias is the strongest drugg that control perception and being unidentified

And sometimes it's not the correct time to perform critical listenings: personaly and i am certain it is the same for everyone else, the audio chain sitting in the living room doesn't sound the same everytime, why? .
Some days it is amazing and '' the best i have ever heard'' ..and some days it sounds just normal , nothing more, no joy or pleasure , no '' damm it's so good'' ... Why? The set up or room didn't change ..only us audiophile listening music have différent moods during the day .

Why do people want to change their dac so often?
Today you buy the dac you wanted, it is the best you have ever heard .. but already and secretly you already think about the next purchase .. that's auto-immune bias

 

[Max_fl]

The funniest part here that none of the respected discussion participants compared those two dacs personally, but ready to write pages to uphold their believes. That's why I like this forum

 

[Svend P]

The funniest part here that none of the respected discussion participants compared those two dacs personally, but ready to write pages to uphold their believes. That's why I like this forum

You wont last long. Cognitive dissonance is tough for audiophiles. Soon you'll just stop posting, just like the others. The clue is that you haven't read any of the threads that were presented to you.

 

[Gremlins]

Personally, i did dacs comparaison with some audio buddies ...

The funniest part here that none of the respected discussion participants compared those two dacs personally, but ready to write pages to uphold their believes. That's why I like this forum

Actually we did compared these two dacs, that's the reason why there are measurements of them

Imagine someone telling you he can see Xrays ... What will you think? You will believe him?
If so, you must go on forums where they discuss about plane earth

 

[RandomEar]

The funniest part here that none of the respected discussion participants compared those two dacs personally, but ready to write pages to uphold their believes. That's why I like this forum

By your logic, no one could ever be sure that the Eiffel Tower is taller than the Statue of Liberty, because no one has seen them side by side or ever will. Do you recognize how nonsensical that idea is? Funny, isn't it?