taner
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I'm just a messenger. Better than fooling around in the name of "science". Sometimes "scientific" ones appear to be dumbest.Demands of the anti-ASR establishment.
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Topping D900 DAC Review
- Thread starter amirm
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And sometimes you step into the domain of the people you are calling the dumbest.
taner
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Really? I wasn't aware of that... It seems like you're the spokesman of this domain. How are you? What is your degree?
You ask me about my degree, but you’re the one out here assessing that scientists (and THIS is Audio SCIENCE Review) are the dumbest.
Tell me what your credentials are in order to make such an assessment. I am happy to inform you that I have an AOS in Culinary Arts from The Culinary Institute of America.
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Thank you so much for opening the case and take a pic of the innards. Do I see correctly that this thing has an SMPS for $10 on board?
taner
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If you're offending that is your own problem because I'm saying that your "scientific" entitlement doesn't prove anything in the respect of holding the absolute truth on any domain, including audio. A person who can be a devout of science but it doesn't mean that he/she can accurately interprete the observation on right direction. This ability requires a healthy mindset. A dumb person can be a devout science believer but this doesn't mean he/she has the ability of evaluating the things on right direction.
I've a master's degree on computer engineering and to be honest I don't take it seriously at all.
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I see the issue here is COMMUNICATION.
I said, “domain,” referring to this web site, not this hobby.
Your opinions are perfectly valid elsewhere; I am simply trying to enlighten you to read the room.
Lots of modern Dacs use encapsulated miniature power supplies modules...
Here you can see a Meanwell IRM-20-15.
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Yes. I had linked to the corresponding offer on mouser.com, hence the categorization as a $10 SMPS. It's a double-edged sword I guess: If you are able to desolder the thing without damaging the PCB, then you can obviously repair the DAC yourself when the PSU dies, and the IRM-20-15 can be bought astonishingly cheap. Not on mouser.com, but digikey.fr will sell it to you for €7.79 + VAT.
What I find fascinating is the different design philosophies of manufacturers. Funk Tonstudiotechnik sells and uses PSUs from €106 to €176 + VAT for audio applications that have less than 10 microvolt noise. And here come the Chinese using a cheap SMPS that is 20 times less expensive and 20 thousand times noisier to build a DAC with spectacular performance. Making it work is one thing, but making it work on a shoestring budget BOM is a different league altogether.
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What I find fascinating is the different design philosophies of manufacturers. Funk Tonstudiotechnik sells and uses PSUs from €106 to €176 + VAT for audio applications that have less than 10 microvolt noise:
... and here come the Chinese using a cheap SMPS that is 20 times less expensive and 20 thousand times noisier to build a DAC with spectacular performance. Making it work is one thing, but making it work on a shoestring budget BOM is a different league altogether.
I think we shouldn't consider the PSU itself, but rather the power supply stage as a whole, including the surrounding components and the inherent filtering. Another example: the TPA325x chipset, for instance, is very inexpensive and has excellent PSRR, so using a high end PSU with very low noise isn't essential. I imagine that DACs with modern chips also have very good PSRR.
VientoB
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Yeah surely the filtering caps deal with the bad stuff. I'm sure Amir did a video on mains noise
Check this review by Amir )
Do you need linear power supply for DACs?
Probably the most asked about question about DACs on audio forums is whether an external, usually linear, power supply improves performance. It just makes sense that it would do that. Doesn't it? Well, let's see if we can figure this out. I have been kindly loaned a Wyrd4Sound PS-1 power...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Modern DAC chips still require a very clean power supply.
SMPS ripple is easier to filter out than the one from LPS because of higher frequency.
Plus here there is no DAC chip.
Thanks for the reply
So I imagine that choosing a miniature, encapsulated PSU is a clean enough here considering the Ripple / Noise ?
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As the English say: 'The proof of the pudding is in the eating'.
If a device, taken as a 'black box', produces stellar measured performances at its output, that means that the inside is properly designed to be up to the challenge. Otherwise, obviously you will see less than stellar measured performances at the output.
"Ca coule de source" as we say in french ) makes sense thx
misterdog
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Though once you add the cost of an external Gustard clock (£ 300/500) maybe the Topping is not so expensive?
As for linear power supplies V SMPS just look at the noise on the device, that's why ASR exists, to debunk these myths.
In many cases the PSU noise of the Audio Precision analyser is greater than that of the device being tested.
If this is directly connected to a DAC chip I think that the DAC may just not start. All the magic happens in passive filtering and regulation between the AC-DC conversion and the chip. Like with an LPS.
People think that the issue with SMPS is noise while the major problem most of them cause is mains leakage current into the audio ground. Much more difficult to get rid off. Reason why they are often associated with DC-DC converters.
I'm confused (which is usually my misunderstanding so hopefully someone can clarify for me)
I read these measurements as saying that at 4.1 Vrms the DAC has SINAD of 122.5 dB
But in small print under the 122.512dB measurement it says 5Vrms
And then I see in the below chart that 4Vrms corresponds to a SINAD of ~117db and 5Vrms looks like about 119dB.
What am I missing?
I read these measurements as saying that at 4.1 Vrms the DAC has SINAD of 122.5 dB
But in small print under the 122.512dB measurement it says 5Vrms
And then I see in the below chart that 4Vrms corresponds to a SINAD of ~117db and 5Vrms looks like about 119dB.
What am I missing?
The, “standard,” line out volume, minimum, you’ll get out of basically all devices on the market with balanced out is ~4V. Many devices offer ~5V out as well. As voltage goes up, signal strength rises farther above noise floor, so SINAD improves.
12.3V is the absolute limit with D900 because it has an active buffer (it has a full active preamp built in); this provides sufficient drive to achieve full power output on newer power ample that have very low to zero gain (unity gain), which achieves the absolute lowest full-chain noise floor possible. They’re doing this on many of their newest DACs; the E50 II goes over 11V on High Amplitude setting.
-Ed
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