Topping D90 vs Denafrips Ares II?

[kn0ppers]

Buy what makes you happy, but don't expect others to confirm your already established beliefs or impressions, especially when you don't have any objective data to prove your claims.

 

[Shangri-La]

Again, the context was subject listening.

 

[BDWoody]

I really dont want to open that can of worms, but... perhaps there ARE measurements that will reveal the difference but just have not been done here?

How about actually demonstrating that difference with a controlled listening test, before making that ridiculous tired claim of missing measurements.

Such a load of nonsense...

 

[Shangri-La]

Sure...if they are peeking.

Otherwise, not so much. Put money on it if you are so sure.

*Edited*

 

[Shangri-La]

Getting late here.

Good night, Gentlemen.

 

[BDWoody]

Getting late here.

Good night, Gentlemen.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

For review in your spare time...

 

[direstraitsfan98]

Ignoring all filters and dacs with audible levels of distortion, all dacs sound the same... It’s the most meaningless component in a system. Buy a more expensive dac because it has more features. Or because it has a nicer chassis. Don’t try to convince yourself to get a certain dac over another one because you think it sounds different.

Something not mentioned enough is the fact most dacs have slightly varying voltage output. Just .2V change can have an audible effect on the sound output. If you do hear a difference in a dac it’s almost always because you aren’t listening to the gear level matched. The brain perceives louder as better and hearing anything different is enough to trick your brain into hearing all sorts of other things that aren’t there.

Just seeing a diffent piece of gear is enough to convince your brain and your ears that the sound is better. Never under estimate the power of sighted bias, confirmation bias and psychoacoustics... those things have more of an effect on what you hear then anything.

 

[bigLP]

Confirmation bias occurs from the direct influence of desire on beliefs. When people would like a certain idea or concept to be true, they end up believing it to be true. They are motivated by wishful thinking. This error leads the individual to stop gathering information when the evidence gathered so far confirms the views or prejudices one would like to be true.
(Heshmat psychology today 2015)https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-choice/201504/what-is-confirmation-bias
A third party reference..... he may not believe us.
Since we are talking about bias. Has anyone addressed order bias in double blind listening tests? Probably for psychoacoustics board.

 

[Shangri-La]

I did not believe DACs sound differently going into my listening comparison, nor did I hope to hear a difference - I wanted to keep the less expensive DAC I bought. But was I surprised.

I'm an MSEE and I'm more obsessed with numbers and measurements than most people I've met. That said, can we put all acoustic and psychological theories aside for a moment.

If one has actually listened to different DACs in a revealing system (Stereophile Class A speakers and amp for example), blind test or not, I would respect his opinion whether he says he hears a difference or not.

How's that for being open-minded?

 

[direstraitsfan98]

If one has actually listened to different DACs in a revealing system (Stereophile Class A speakers and amp for example), blind test or not, I would respect his opinion whether he says he hears a difference or not.

How's that for being open-minded?

Well firstly why are you quoting yourself like that. I don't really see how having this kind of reference of thinking means you are more open minded then anyone else. If anything it demonstrates you are less open minded. My take away from this sentence is that you are more inclined to respect someones opinion if they have heard the dac's in question on Stereophile class A rated speakers as opposed to someone who hasn't. If we've established that when it comes to dacs, they all sound the same, why does one need to hear them in a system, revealing or not?

At this time, about 2 years ago, I had, in my system the Harbeth 30.2 40th anniversary edition monitors. These are Stereophile class A rated, as you requested!!!!!

It was the first and last time I had so many dacs in my room and me and a fellow local audiophile did some extensive testing. We had a Schiit Yggdrasil, a Schiit Gungnir multibit, a Schiit Bifrost, a Topping D30, and D50, and an RME Babyface. We did our best to level match everything between inputs. We spent 3 hours switching back and forth and playing the exact same 5 or 6 tracks over and over. We could not tell much of a difference at all. All the dacs sounded pretty much exactly the same. If we heard any differences we couldn't discern if they were real or imagined. Nothing sounded significantly better or significantly worse.

After we finished I knew I didn't want to try this test again. It was a hassle and also mentally draining. And this was just between two audiophiles for fun. Imagine if I had some kind of pressure to explain what I heard in a timely fashion due to everyone on an online forum expecting it. Kudos to anyone who tries to setup blind testing scenarios but I think it's a huge waste of time when it comes to dacs.

 

[Shangri-La]

Well firstly why are you quoting yourself like that. I don't really see how having this kind of reference of thinking means you are more open minded then anyone else. If anything it demonstrates you are less open minded. My take away from this sentence is that you are more inclined to respect someones opinion if they have heard the dac's in question on Stereophile class A rated speakers as opposed to someone who hasn't. If we've established that when it comes to dacs, they all sound the same, why does one need to hear them in a system, revealing or not?

At this time, about 2 years ago, I had, in my system the Harbeth 30.2 40th anniversary edition monitors. These are Stereophile class A rated, as you requested!!!!!

It was the first and last time I had so many dacs in my room and me and a fellow local audiophile did some extensive testing. We had a Schiit Yggdrasil, a Schiit Gungnir multibit, a Schiit Bifrost, a Topping D30, and D50, and an RME Babyface. We did our best to level match everything between inputs. We spent 3 hours switching back and forth and playing the exact same 5 or 6 tracks over and over. We could not tell much of a difference at all. All the dacs sounded pretty much exactly the same. If we heard any differences we couldn't discern if they were real or imagined. Nothing sounded significantly better or significantly worse.

After we finished I knew I didn't want to try this test again. It was a hassle and also mentally draining. And this was just between two audiophiles for fun. Imagine if I had some kind of pressure to explain what I heard in a timely fashion due to everyone on an online forum expecting it. Kudos to anyone who tries to setup blind testing scenarios but I think it's a huge waste of time when it comes to dacs.

Thank you for actually listening to different DACs.

Music and Hi-Fi gear is what we love and why can't we enjoy them in different ways! There's no right or wrong way as long as they make us happy.

 

[Soundstage]

I did not believe DACs sound differently going into my listening comparison, nor did I hope to hear a difference - I wanted to keep the less expensive DAC I bought. But was I surprised.

I'm an MSEE and I'm more obsessed with numbers and measurements than most people I've met. That said, can we put all acoustic and psychological theories aside for a moment.

If one has actually listened to different DACs in a revealing system (Stereophile Class A speakers and amp for example), blind test or not, I would respect his opinion whether he says he hears a difference or not.

How's that for being open-minded?

Did you hear a larger soundstage with more air?

 

[Shangri-La]

Did you hear a larger soundstage with more air?

Sound quality and resolution is what usually catches me the most. The Benchmark DAC3 was the best in every way including soundstage.

 

[murraycamp]

If one has actually listened to different DACs in a revealing system (Stereophile Class A speakers and amp for example), blind test or not, I would respect his opinion whether he says he hears a difference or not.

I would respect his opinion less, or at least with enhanced suspicion, based on how some of those components actually measure.

 

[BDWoody]

That said, can we put all acoustic and psychological theories aside for a moment.

On an Audio Science site?

That's great for reinforcing what you have already decided to believe, since science is rejected in favor of making everyone feel accepted, even when talking nonsense...like most audio sites that encourage very creative descriptions of nonexistent differences.

 

[Shangri-La]

On an Audio Science site?

That's great for reinforcing what you have already decided to believe, since science is rejected in favor of making everyone feel accepted, even when talking nonsense...like most audio sites that encourage very creative descriptions of nonexistent differences.

Conversation was started when someone commented whether measurements make a difference in real-world listening.

That's why I was sticking to the discussion, about real-world listening. How amazing people are allowed to exchange listening experience and can have different opinions.

 

[kn0ppers]

That's why I was sticking to the discussion, about real-world listening. How amazing people are allowed to exchange listening experience and can have different opinions.

I mean you can definitely do that, I just think it is a waste of time to have these discussions about what DAC "sounds better" and I will voice this opinion whenever I feel the need to. I believe what you and others asking these kind of questions mainly search for is confirmation from others, confirmation you might "need" to reduce the cognitive dissonance which might be experienced when buying an expensive DAC. I don't mean this to be offensive and some might disagree, but I think this is kind of childish behaviour. If you want to have a real "discussion about subjective impressions of DACs", there are plenty of other places...

 

[JohnYang1997]

Subjective opinions? Still the process has to be scientific. Blind test, volume matched are as low as the line is. That's the prerequisite of any evaluation.

 

[PETERPAN]

Unless you must have some specific feature great DAC's are available for under $200. Balanced outputs will cost more, if you really need them for long cable runs or an amp which has low sensitivity like some of the Hypex units.

An example of such DAC under $200 will be much appreciated sir.

 

[ReaderZ]

Ignoring all filters and dacs with audible levels of distortion, all dacs sound the same... It’s the most meaningless component in a system. Buy a more expensive dac because it has more features. Or because it has a nicer chassis. Don’t try to convince yourself to get a certain dac over another one because you think it sounds different.

Something not mentioned enough is the fact most dacs have slightly varying voltage output. Just .2V change can have an audible effect on the sound output. If you do hear a difference in a dac it’s almost always because you aren’t listening to the gear level matched. The brain perceives louder as better and hearing anything different is enough to trick your brain into hearing all sorts of other things that aren’t there.

Just seeing a diffent piece of gear is enough to convince your brain and your ears that the sound is better. Never under estimate the power of sighted bias, confirmation bias and psychoacoustics... those things have more of an effect on what you hear then anything.

The issue is features cost a lot, and since they already cost a lot, it's hard to not look at the measurement ladder if you are already paying for these. Plus QC is another thing that you have to consider, better QC usually = more money. I wanted both usb and optical in, XLR out, both balanced and unbalanced head amp, and MQA. USB, optical and XLR are must have for me, so with limited budget I had to cut out MQA or balanced headphone amp.

This still put me at a higher price range than I waned, so why not pick something measures better than the others?