TOPPING D90 III Sabre DAC Review

[staticV3]

Hello! Tell me, please, on what principle is the pre-amplifier in this dac made?

It's digital signal attenuation applied by the ESS DAC chip.

 

[B.A.T.]

It's digital signal attenuation applied by the ESS DAC chip.

Reviewers say it's better sounding than used to, but it's still not like a dedicated pre-amp.

 

[staticV3]

Reviewers say it's better sounding than used to, but it's still not like a dedicated pre-amp.

Do said reviewers offer more than empty words?

 

[B.A.T.]

Do said reviewers offer more than empty words?

Since reviewing after listening experiences always subjective it's hard to tell. But I can imagine so called DAC pre-amps also evolves over time.

 

[sandeep_s300]

Question: I am using the D90 III as preamp with my Sunfire amp and later this week will be connected to Apollon Hypex ncx500 2ch amp. Will there be any audible benefit if the D90 preamp is turned off and let a dedicated preamplifier do the preamp work?

 

[B.A.T.]

Question: I am using the D90 III as preamp with my Sunfire amp and later this week will be connected to Apollon Hypex ncx500 2ch amp. Will there be any audible benefit if the D90 preamp is turned off and let a dedicated preamplifier do the preamp work?

Probably yes, but try it both way and you can experience the differences.

 

[EdW]

Question: I am using the D90 III as preamp with my Sunfire amp and later this week will be connected to Apollon Hypex ncx500 2ch amp. Will there be any audible benefit if the D90 preamp is turned off and let a dedicated preamplifier do the preamp work?

in terms of sound quality no difference whatsoever. The DAC output at 0dB will roughly correspond to full drive for the power amps. At this level your loudspeakers will be totally max’d out - certainly over 110dBSPL in many situations. This is deafeningly load and you will not be able to distinguish any distortion from either the DAC (better than -120db) or the amp (not much worse than -120dB). Your hearing will have a very poor dynamic range at this SPL as will your speakers. Reduce the volume by 40dB in the DAC the SPL will fall by 40dB but any distortion product from your DAC or amp will now be below the threshold of hearing so even if your hearing could manage the dynamic range (it can’t) you still wouldn’t hear any DAC distortion.
Obviously the additional amplification stages in preamp must add distortion. A tube preamp will be very poor and even the best solid state preamps (topping pre 90 etc.) will add a small, but negligible, distortion and noise.

There are arguments for a preamp:
1. you need an analog input
2. You listen to live broadcast digital material. The recording engineer only has one opportunity to get it right so he sets the max level well below 0dB so as not to risk overload. Your live broadcast might therefore sound a little quiet as it won’t reach 110dB SPL - if that matters to you! On a later edit he could of course increase the digital level - but not for the live broadcast. An active preamp in your system would allow you to increase the volume for this particular usage case.

 

[yys310]

I found my D90III has weird behavior when I use 192kHz toslink input.
D90III FW: 1.14, sound mode off
Measured interface : COSMOS class B
D90III SPDIF MODE 1
signal generator: REW J-test

D90III with toslink 192kHz input:

D90III with toslink 176.4kHz input:

D50III with the same toslink 192kHz input:

D50III performs quite normal so I don't think it's the problem from toslink source (RME digiface USB)
Also the USB input for D90III performs normally:

Can anyone with D90III and toslink input check whether this is my model's problem or FW 1.14's bug?
Thanks a lot!

 

[staticV3]

I found my D90III has weird behavior when I use 192kHz toslink input.
D90III FW: 1.14, sound mode off
Measured interface : COSMOS class B
D90III SPDIF MODE 1
signal generator: REW J-test

D90III with toslink 192kHz input:
View attachment 377151
D90III with toslink 176.4kHz input:
View attachment 377152
D50III with the same toslink 192kHz input:
View attachment 377154
D50III performs quite normal so I don't think it's the problem from toslink source (RME digiface USB)
Also the USB input for D90III performs normally:
View attachment 377155
Can anyone with D90III and toslink input check whether this is my model's problem or FW 1.14's bug?
Thanks a lot!

Have you tried SPDIF mode 2?

 

[yys310]

Have you tried SPDIF mode 2?

It's even worse. Also has worse performance in 176.4kHz sampling rate if set to mode 2.
I think the PLL is relaxed for SPDIF mode 2 for better tolerance but also reduce the de-jitter capability.

 

[EdW]

I found my D90III has weird behavior when I use 192kHz toslink input.
D90III FW: 1.14, sound mode off
Measured interface : COSMOS class B
D90III SPDIF MODE 1
signal generator: REW J-test

D90III with toslink 192kHz input:
View attachment 377151
D90III with toslink 176.4kHz input:
View attachment 377152
D50III with the same toslink 192kHz input:
View attachment 377154
D50III performs quite normal so I don't think it's the problem from toslink source (RME digiface USB)
Also the USB input for D90III performs normally:
View attachment 377155
Can anyone with D90III and toslink input check whether this is my model's problem or FW 1.14's bug?
Thanks a lot!

This looks like a serious issue on Topping’s flagship DAC. Topping should be helping here to get this problem understood and sorted out. I hope they will show interest through this forum in order to maintain customer confidence. This is, after all, a knowledgeable source of free customer feedback.

 

[sandeep_s300]

Finally it’s here . Quite an improvement compare to the D70 Sabre . Connected directly to Apollon ncx500 stereo power amp. Stealth audio hybrid mlt speaker cables , qed ref subwoofer rca , qed optical input , Tellurium Q silver diamond XLR, Shunyata Venom v12 NR Power cord , Speakers M&K sound s300 with X10 subwoofer.

 

[Lupin]

Finally it’s here . Quite an improvement compare to the D70 Sabre .

What improvement exactly?

 

[sandeep_s300]

What improvement exactly?

Everything - 10-20% improvement throughout the spectrum

 

[Purité Audio]

Fantastic.
Keith

 

[Lupin]

Everything - 10-20% improvement throughout the spectrum

Why not 25% ?

 

[Veri]

Why not 25% ?

Subjectively, 19% at best.

 

[JIW]

@amirm are the filter names/colors correct? According to the ES9039PRO datasheet, "Minimum Phase" and "Linear Apodizing" should not be as slow as the graphs here show. Also, "Slow Minimum" and "Min Phase Slow" sound like they should be the same filter, but clearly are shown not to be the same, and "Slow Minimum" has a surprisingly fast roll-off for a "slow" filter

The filters are labeled incorrectly by Topping. The corresponding list and figure in the manual is also incorrect. I explain which is which in this thread.

 

[yys310]

The filters are labeled incorrectly by Topping. The corresponding list and figure in the manual is also incorrect. I explain which is which in this thread.
View attachment 377816
View attachment 377817

That's why they released FW 1.14.
The FW 1.14 fixed the filter order according to their manual.
Not sure if the jitter issue at 192kHz sampling rate via toslink comes from this FW.

 

[JIW]

That's why they released FW 1.14.
The FW 1.14 fixed the filter order according to their manual.
Not sure if the jitter issue at 192kHz sampling rate via toslink comes from this FW.

I used the latest version of the manual. The same as available on the website today from 21 May 2024. The firmware update is from the same day.

The figure is from 4 September 2023. If they changed it, they should update the figure in the manual and on the website. But still curious they messed it up for over half a year after getting it right on the D70 Pro released before the D90 III.