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Topping D90 Balanced USB DAC Review

mocenigo

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Yup, that is what WBC and other budget cable builds that build for quality do, they pick the best components and use best practices in the construction and design and offer a better price than the original.

Making our own can save even more money, but cost a lot more if you aren't already set up to do it, and already have gained experience soldering and cable making. I don't recommend it to an amateur novice looking to save a few bucks unless they are prepared to invest in the tools, redo the work several times, and perhaps ruin cable/connector stock in the process. All costly entries to start up DIY cable making from scratch.

I started building cables professionally - for pay - when I was in Jr. High. I had the great fortune of making friends with a buddy whose father was an Engineer with his own consulting company, with contracts with top industry customers back in the late 60's/70's, and he took me on to apprentice.

I worked building cables, wire-wrapping, silk-screen boards, doing point to point soldering, and fine soldering on small circuits where my small hands - I was 13 to start - could fit into places grown-up hands couldn't easily reach. He specialized in test rigs for projects, test equipment builds, cable arrays for taking measurements - some hundreds of feet long. Some as small as need to fit inside fish for tracking them in rivers.

I also did a lot of other things required to take a project contract from plans to tested and calibrated end result to a customer, a great training ground to get all the skills a product engineer needs to be successful. And, I earned good money, far better than I earned selling greeting cards door to door starting at 8, and that was good money too.

After a year of apprenticeship, I had started High School, and he placed me with a larger company doing contract work for a wide range of digital and analog controls for turbine engines, working on racks of relays being converted to digital controls. They also did medical component builds, and test equipment for various medical laboratories, which meant on occasion I worked on those builds to help get them out the door.

I was on the manufacturing push line for a year there, then one day I was asked to build from plans a test rig for a new board, and after completing that, writing the test scripts for it, running a few trays of test boards through it, I graduated to test technician. After doing that for a year I was loaned out to the Engineering department to work on new designs, the first being an RCA Cosmac 1802 design.

Then I was asked to program an 8080 system in Macro Assembler an entire inventory system to track components from purchasing through incoming test through kitting for projects, and on to finished deliverables - at the same time I asked to work in purchasing to gain experience with the component costs and lead times.

So, I have had a long career of building, testing, and engineering electronics, if I wanted to build cables for fun I would, if I wanted to build cables to save money - I would chuckle to myself - and then look for well constructed cables using top components that I would use to build my own cables - to save time.

If you are trying to learn by doing DIY projects, building cables is a good start, and I recommend it. But, not for everyone, most people just want a well made cable using top components for their home systems. There is nothing wrong with that need either, because not everything needs to be built from scratch. Sometimes we just need a built assembly to use to construct an overall system to enjoy - our focus for design is higher up on the component build chain.

But, I really enjoyed building cables while I was going through the process of learning how to build them, especially the ones with dozens of wires - the big round green ones - and the long long long ones with wires and sensors potted into rods strung together for what seemed like an endless chain, to be dropped into the ocean to measure temperature layers in the depths. Fun stuff. :)

Wowowowow. Really cool story!
 

mocenigo

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If @hmscott would be living in a power transformer, he would probably be safe of EMI as I would imagine it as a Faraday cage :p

Yeah. I however *do* live atop of a little water power plant (!) and here almost everything hums and buzzes. I would say that bricks do that as well, but I never measured them, so it does not count here ;-) Anyway, I had to change quite a few things to kill all the hums and buzzes, and changing a cheap interconnect for a nice, yet not too expensive cable (ESA approved for aerospace applications), terminated with Neutrix EMC XLR plugs was one of the steps I undertook. Interestingly, this is now irrelevant (from that point of view) with my current Purifi amp with a Neurochrome universal buffer in front – however it was necessary with my previous NC500 based amp with a boutique buffer based on a discrete op-amp – in other words, if I put the old interconnect (van den hul) in place, now I hear no hums, but since I have *my* own cable, which I soldered myself with my hands, I keep it.
 
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mocenigo

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A few comments up hmscott declared he had EMI noise in his cables he could hear. Unless he lives in a power transformer, or he was using fishing wire, I doubt that was the case.

I also make my own Mogami cables for their suppleness. But that's the only reason.

I like Mogami and Klotz, in general. Supple or not, whatever, they do their job!
 

spiritofjerry

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I like Mogami and Klotz, in general. Supple or not, whatever, they do their job!
I only choose cables based on their suppleness. I HATE cables that are so stiff that they move my gear around on my desk or in my cabinet. Monoprice RCA's are the worst in this regard. I don't care about brands: I just want flexible cable at the proper gauge, in OFC copper.
 

hmscott

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I woke up this morning to a pleasant surprise, a Topping HS01 had already been "ordered" on my account at Hifigo.com, and the HS01 is already shipped and on it's way to me. I guess they hoped I'd say "yes" to the request for testing, and they were correct. :)

It looks like my long-drawn-out squawk about my Topping A90/D90 "noise" issues posted here on ASR are coming around again for me to test new solutions.

A few months ago I put out an RFQ to World's Best Cables on Amazon to custom build 4 cables of lengths 3' and 6', with 3.5mm to RCA ends for field use, and so I could connect my devices with 3.5mm audio ports to my A90/TA-20 desktop setup.

I'd been through a number of progressively more expensive series of pre-built cables for 3.5mm to RCA and they all failed to block RFI/EMI in my set up. Very disappointing, actually, how poorly shielded cables are made today.

The Worlds Best XLR/RCA cables built from Mogami 2534 with 4-wire quad-star faraday-cage-like shielding were the only ones I found out of a similar long hunt for RFI/EMI blocking cables that worked in my environment. So I asked WBC if they would build cables to spec using similar shielding design but modified to a light build for hand-held use.

If Ithe 3.5mm-RCA custom-built cables were built using Mogami 2534 the cables would be unweildy in the field and in the hand (some are hand-held devices) with such a heavy thick cable, but Mogami makes a similarly shielded quad wire Mogami 2893 which should fill the need nicely. I'm looking forward to testing the cable for RFI/EMI rejection.

I'll post my findings as I discover them. A word about my current state of health, it's not great, so I'm much slower to "get around to it" than usual, but I do persist - so eventually I'll post something, my apologies in advance for any delay's.

I've been working up to the custom 3.5mm to RCA cable testing for quite a long time, and it is nice that Topping released the HS01 USB Isolator I can test at the same time, coincidentally I have a number of deliveries scheduled to arrive this Thursday, 11/11 that were supposed to arrive later in November and December, so it looks like some shipping blockages may be working themselves out for the Holidays, hopefully the HS01 won't take too long to get here.

My Kindle Paperwhite Signature Edition also arrives Thursday - and I am hoping, although I haven't seen it discussed or confirmed anywhere, that a USB-C to 3.5mm audio adapter will pass audio out the Kindle's USB-C port; then I can use one of the custom-built WBC 3.5mm to RCA cables to play my Audiobooks EMI/RFI free through my A90/TA-20.

Now, perhaps someone will give the Topping U90 a try and report on it here on ASR as well. :)

If there are any updates, I'll add to this post later...

Updates here:
Yeah. I however *do* live atop of a little water power plant (!) and here almost everything hums and buzzes. I would say that bricks do that as well, but I never measured it, so it does not count here ;-) Anyway, I had to change quite a few things to kill all the hums and buzzes, and changing a cheap interconnect for a nice, yet not too expensive cable (ESA approved for aerospace applications), terminated with Neutrix EMC XLR plugs was one of the steps I undertook. Interestingly, this is now irrelevant (from that point of view) with my current Purifi amp with a Neurochrome universal buffer in front – however it was necessary with my previous NC500 based amp with a boutique buffer based on a discrete op-amp – in other words, if I put the old interconnect (van den hul) in place, now I hear no hums, but since I have *my* own cable, which I soldered myself with my hands, I keep it.
Yup, living near power lines most of my life - California! - and being an Amateur Radio operator since I was 12, I've experienced induced voltage high enough to measure with a VOM/Multimeter across my antennas on 15 meters, and down right damaging to connected equipment without filters on 160/80/40.

Life in the "big city" ;)

So, like I said I may be in an unusual situation, but there have been (still are?) other reports of A90/D90 RCA noise, and it took EMI/RFI noise mitigations to solve it for them too - which is why I post detailed info on what I've tried that works, and doesn't work. The people that can't be bothered with solving such issues simply returned their A90/D90's.

I'm trying to help the owners solve these problems, as many haven't seen these issues with their other equipment. Topping is also trying to help their clients to get rid of USB 5V Power borne interference by releasing the Topping HS01 and emphasizing the noise reduction features of their new Topping U90 by building in the USB Isolator, and stopping data rate switching pops by using I2S options.

I can't easily "move the A90/D90" away from the sources(s) of the interference - as can work for desktop proximity or room/house based local interference (wireless routers, cordless phones, non-BT headphones, etc.), so I had to find other mitigations.
I like Mogami and Klotz, in general. Supple or not, whatever, they do their job!
I've received my custom 3.5mm to RCA cables today, they are both (3'/6') very nicely made, the Y section's have a hard guide piece and both ends of those junctions have thick shrink wrap nicely finished covering the entries. The narrower Mogami W2893 Miniature Quad Microphone Cable I specified is much more flexible than the Mogami 2534, but it is still a "hearty/meaty" cable.

I'll try to get some photo's of the cable/ends up too, I've already "unwrapped" the package, so I can't show how nicely wound the cabling was as it came out of the Amazon box. If this first build rejects noise well, I'll get another pair to follow, and then I'll try to remember to photograph the packaging. It was wrapped in the usual WBC folded cardboard "hanger" with the stitched Velcro cable tie, very nice. Here's a WBC cable review that shows the packaging:

BTW, I've found that WBC already has a 3.5mm Male/Female extension cable using the Mogami W2893 cable and the same 3.5mm Male end on my custom cables, so you can see the thickness of the cable. Their listing includes images that have descriptive text, measurements, and source company data on the connectors and cable:
6 Foot - Quad Balanced Headphone Extension Cable Custom Made by WORLDS BEST CABLES – Using Mogami 2893 Wire and Neutrik-Rean NYS231BG Male & NYS240BG Female 3.5mm Gold TRS Plugs - $22.95

BTW, the pair of custom cables, one 3' and one 6' were $66.76 shipped from Amazon. No set up charge or custom charge, I think the costs are computed by WBC based on the connectors+wire on a standard scale.

I will test the two cables (3'/6') over the weekend with a bunch of devices that output headphone/lineout via 3.5m and see if the interference is reduced from the other cables I've tried so far, and post my results.

Update: In the comments of that video above, someone posted that WBC is working on their website too: https://worldsbestcables.com/
I sent an email asking if the site was really theirs and when we can expect it up and running. :)
Update: WBC answered that domain is theirs, and it was planned to come into service before the pandemic, the implementation is on hold for now.

Update: Other things took time this weekend, but I did get a chance to hook up my Nintendo Switch - 3' cable, PL-368 and GP-5/PL-365 handheld radios - 6' cable for a while on Saturday, and there were no noise problems. What I did get was much better audio - through the TA-20 which has 2 RCA inputs and 1 XLR input, and all of the devices sounded the best I've heard so far through my system.

No RFI/EMI noise, and no GPU noise was picked up while connected at both ends, and the audio was the best to my ears on the Nintendo using the 3.5mm output port rather than using Bluetooth directly out of the Nintendo Switch to the D90. I was concerned that the noise floor of the handheld radios would be too high - but they were both very quiet when battery powered. For now I am very satisfied with the new 3.5mm to RCA cables from WBC.

Also, no additional noise was detected in the existing D90/A90 connections after the new cables were attached - I am leaving both 3.5mm-RCA cables connected to the TA-20 - one to the Nintendo switch and one free to use with desktop and handheld radios. Next time I'll request a 9' cable build for more reach than the 6' cable.

The cable is heavy, but flexible and easy to use, and definitely an adequate improvement for complete audible noise rejection over the cheap thin unshielded cables I tried before the WBC cables.

I did receive the Kindle Paperwhite Signature, and I am really enjoy reading with the dual color lighting over the Kindle Keyboard "Lighted Cover", but I need to find my 3.5mm USB-C adapters before I can test them connected to the TA-20/A90.

The only considerations where I needed to make a change was for weaker stations that still engaged Stereo mode, the edge cases caused distorted audio until I raised the radio/antenna to get a better signal, final solution was to forced mono mode then it sounded awesome again.

As you noticed this was all about FM reception so far, then I moved to MW (AM) where the wired signal through the TA-20 also sounded great -and for the most part the 9khz AM bandwidth setting was very musical without much noise from the radio on local signals, very listenable, though FM was more enjoyable to listening for music.

Then I moved to SW(AM,SSB) and heard WWV on 10Mhz - and I could discern the vocal audio portion much better as amplified through the TA-20 than trying to listen directly with headphones out of the radio's 3.5mm headphone ports. An external amplifier really makes the difference when pulling out weak signals to get intelligible details. I now need an external filter/EQ to pass through from these external radios to shape the audio before input to the TA-20. I definitely don't need EQ/Filtering on FM wired to the TA-20 to enjoy the music, but EQ/filtering would be helpful for pulling out weak signals to pull out the information carried. I will try CW on my other radios later.

I'll ask WBC if they carry or know of any "lighter" cables with comparable shielding. I researched for lighter solutions than the Mogami 2534, and asked WBC if they would build with the Mogami 2893 instead, but I know WBC carries a number of other wire brands. Perhaps there is a competing wire brand with adequate shielding that is a lighter more slender build? The Mogami 2893 is flexible enough and it is not as heavy as the Mogami 2534, and 2893 has the same Quad Star Shielding method comparable to the 2534, but an even lighter cable would be appreciated that can do the same EMI/RFI rejection. Maybe 2893 is all there is for light thin cable with excellent external noise rejection?

I've gone through enough RF coax to know there are many alternative offerings that provide better shielding and noise rejection - as well as less lossy signal carrying for particular frequency ranges, but perhaps the audio field has narrowed the sources down to only a few, one?, for external noise rejection?

I've sent some build notes to WBC I'd like implemented in the next pair of cables, I'll elaborate when we work them out together into the next pairs of cables to test.
Does anyone have any make/model suggestions for thinner/lighter but designed to shield from RFI/EMI noise cable that can compete with the Mogami 2534/2893? If so I can ask WBC to make 3.5mm to RCA cables out of that wire too. :)
 
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spiritofjerry

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I will test the two cables (3'/6') over the weekend with a bunch of devices that output headphone/lineout via 3.5m and see if the interference is reduced from the other cables I've tried so far, and post my results.
Some measurements would be nice if you could post those. Do some standard RCA, and compare the Mogami. I really would love to see this EMI/RFI noise on a chart. Listening impressions, unfortunately, are not reliable.
 

hmscott

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I can say that apart from the pops I hear when going from DSD files to MQA files, this DAC works wonderfully. I personally don't use any of Roon's DSP features, and I don't use volume leveling via Roon. All I get is wonderful sound. And regardless of how you personally feel about MQA files, I can say that every one I listened to sounded amazing. Really great!

I don't regret getting the MQA version of the D90, and when I replace it I will look for MQA functionality in the replacement DAC also.
So far I really like this DAC. But I have to report that I am getting very large pops whenever I change from DSD files to MQA files. No pops then going from MQA to DSD files though.
It's a pretty substantial pop. About as loud as Gavin Harrison hitting his snare drum.

I am on the latest firmware.
Hi, I ran across this text when checking out the new Topping U90 that suggests it can mitigate the data rate switching pops by inserting the U90 in the data chain, I thought you might like to know. I've also seen other people mention D90 data rate switching pops recently elsewhere, so current D90/D90 MQA firmware doesn't solve the popping within the DAC itself as you noted:

"Full IIS Controller, Unleash The Full Potential Of IIS Output
Topping has equipped the U90 with four sets of switches to set the IIS pin definitions. It allows the U90 to make the IIS output compatible with different brands with different transmission definitions. U90 also houses a mute pin in the IIS transmission, when used with Topping DAC’s that have IIS input, it reduces the pop-noise when switching the sampling rate. A true high-resolution IIS output is available with the U90 for you."

A bit of an expensive solution, I hope Topping includes this data rate switching popping mitigation feature(s) in future DAC's. BTW, I haven't checked, does this popping from data rate changes in the PCM signal on the D90 SE also cause these popping noises?

Also, Topping has built-in the "USB Isolator" of their new Topping HS01 into the new Topping U90, I wish that were available in my D90, and AFAIK I'd have the same PC GPU noise problem with the D90SE too, again I hope Topping includes these new features into their next iteration of the D90 series:

"Built-In USB Isolator:
Topping has designed the U90 USB bridge with an in-built isolator that effectively reduces the background noise introduced by the ground loop. This ensures a pure sound performance with the U90 in the chain."
 
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mocenigo

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I only choose cables based on their suppleness. I HATE cables that are so stiff that they move my gear around on my desk or in my cabinet. Monoprice RCA's are the worst in this regard. I don't care about brands: I just want flexible cable at the proper gauge, in OFC copper.

Oh yes, they have a very nice feeling to them, and they are quite lissom. Supple as you say. I use the Sommer cable cicada for my headphone cables. All nice cables, with good shielding, good OFC.
 

Dclone

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Imagine thinking these devices make your setup "sound better" in the absence of any ground loop noise :facepalm:
Well, I know that I represent what some calls audiophils. I have no problem with that. ”What sounds best” means what is most resistant to disturbances from other electronics, vibrations and so on. I have no ground loops in my two home setups and I am using shielded USB cables. But, the connection is, in my opinion, a week spot. U90 and idefender+ is a really cheap buy to test if the sound change. Better, worse or just change? Thats why I am testing the products. I do have a ground loop in my summerhouse so one of the products hopefully come in use
 
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I don't know if anyone still reads this thread, but I have a d90.. was having a minor issue where the clock was falling out of sync, determined it to be a driver issue.. went to topping to see if reinstalling the driver would help... turns out that they had just released a driver update yesterday.. 11/12/21.. just want to say I listen about 3-4 hours a day since I got the dac with various inputs.. this driver update significantly improved the audio quality over USB, holy ship.;)!!!! Get the new driver!
 
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I don't know if anyone still reads this thread, but I have a d90.. was having a minor issue where the clock was falling out of sync, determined it to be a driver issue.. went to topping to see if reinstalling the driver would help... turns out that they had just released a driver update yesterday.. 11/12/21.. just want to say I listen about 3-4 hours a day since I got the dac with various inputs.. this driver update significantly improved the audio quality over USB, holy ship.;)!!!! Get the new driver!
Well, the new driver 5.37 had a problem with win 10 and the system audio..worked great with audirvana.. however there is a 5.20 driver that is win 10 only.. works great! Same audio jump.. never updated since 2020 original purchase.. FYI:)
 

hmscott

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I don't know if anyone still reads this thread, but I have a d90.. was having a minor issue where the clock was falling out of sync, determined it to be a driver issue.. went to topping to see if reinstalling the driver would help... turns out that they had just released a driver update yesterday.. 11/12/21.. just want to say I listen about 3-4 hours a day since I got the dac with various inputs.. this driver update significantly improved the audio quality over USB, holy ship.;)!!!! Get the new driver!
Well, the new driver 5.37 had a problem with win 10 and the system audio..worked great with audirvana.. however there is a 5.20 driver that is win 10 only.. works great! Same audio jump.. never updated since 2020 original purchase.. FYI:)
@JohnYang1997 - please thank you and your guys that made this 5.27 driver release happen. :)

What were the changes/fixes? I didn't see anything mentioning the fixes/changes in the zip files.

Thanks again Topping! :cool:
 
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@JohnYang1997 - please thank you and your guys that made this 5.27 driver release happen. :)

What were the changes/fixes? I didn't see anything mentioning the fixes/changes in the zip files.

Thanks again Topping! :cool:
I'm not sure of the specifics but, alot more air, spacing, and overall clarity in all frequencies.. now using the driver that autoloads when you plug in the d90 might have been the issue.. it might suck, and now I have a driver that works normally.. i wish 5.37 worked with win 10, but it will not play system audio (websites), but when audirvana took over it played fine, unfortunately I'm a big concert streamer, so I need system audio, it wouldn't work with Boom 3d either.. it seems to sound the same with 5.20, and that is win 10 only.. I look at these boards occasionally since I purchased my d90, why hasnt anyone talked about these updates before?
 

Veri

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I'm not sure of the specifics but, alot more air, spacing, and overall clarity in all frequencies.. now using the driver that autoloads when you plug in the d90 might have been the issue.. it might suck, and now I have a driver that works normally.. i wish 5.37 worked with win 10, but it will not play system audio (websites), but when audirvana took over it played fine, unfortunately I'm a big concert streamer, so I need system audio, it wouldn't work with Boom 3d either.. it seems to sound the same with 5.20, and that is win 10 only.. I look at these boards occasionally since I purchased my d90, why hasnt anyone talked about these updates before?
Because JohnYang himself said it is literally Windows bugfixes. Yes it could fix stuttering or clock issues if the previous version caused that. No, it won't change the sound in a positive way. A Windows driver won't do that....
 
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I think the clock distortions were constant though not as noticeable without a fine tooth audio comb, now they are cleared up, I mean my audio would drop out and turn into loud static and music every month or so.. It just sounds better now,.. yes a driver would help an audio distortion issues..lol... long live Jerry Garcia!!!
 

hmscott

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I think the clock distortions were constant though not as noticeable without a fine tooth audio comb, now they are cleared up, I mean my audio would drop out and turn into loud static and music every month or so.. It just sounds better now,.. yes a driver would help an audio distortion issues..lol... long live Jerry Garcia!!!
You shouldn't be experiencing drop outs or static unless the USB cable isn't plugged in tightly or perhaps the USB cable has an intermittent wire break / bad connector crimp/solder point, as I haven't seen anyone else report D90 "loud static" or "drop-outs" - and when I have experienced it (in the past, not on the D90) my USB cable was too long or the cable was intermittent/bad, or connected insecurely.

There are values recommended to change for various data rates, and I've found a setting of 256 samples/sec with "Safe Mode" unchecked is an adequate compromise to manually tracking the buffer samples/sec setting in the control panel as data rates change.

And, in V5.27 I tried selecting "8 samples" with "Safe Mode" unchecked, and that "bad setting" didn't introduce any dropouts in the short time I tried it. The Windows Tidal app notes the device connection drops at each Buffer Setting change, but I didn't see a disconnects after resyncing.
1636956967989.png1636957122384.png
And, I'm now seeing auto changes back to 2048 samples/sec when the rate changes back to the default setting of 384k, such as when watching YT video in a browser:
1636962939684.png
...and back again to 256 samples/sec and 44.1k/48k when Tidal plays a track - in exclusive mode:

Here is a short description from iFi about setting the ASIO driver Buffer Settings.
 
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spiritofjerry

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