Topping D90 Balanced USB DAC Review

[hmscott]

My D90 is for sale if anybody is interested.

Scotland

I saw your listing:

For sale. Topping D90 USB DAC

For sale. Topping D90 USB DAC AK4499 DAC DSD512 32Bit 768kHz XMOS XU208 Hi-Res Audio Full Balanced Decoder with I2s/AES/Coax/Opt Input (Black). Fully boxed in original packaging. £520 ono

www.audiosciencereview.com

Why don't you like it? What are you upgrading/replacing the D90 with?

There are other hardware not compatible with the Apple M1 builds, perhaps this is one of them? Good thing I didn't try my D90 MQA directly on the MBP M1 I had for a couple of months, I would have wasted time trying to get it to work as you did...

Perhaps try an intermediate connection like a Thunderbolt Dock or USB dock? - that has worked before in the past with Macintosh/Windows USB incompatibilities as devices migrated from USB-1,2,3, and now USB4 with Apple's new implementations. With the limited connections on the MBA M1 it is pretty much a necessity on the desktop to have a Thunderbolt dock to be able to interconnect required devices with the new M1's.

Why not host your D90 from your Windows machine?

You may find other DAC's also not compatible with the Apple M1's... probably a good idea to ask around for any potential candidate. A lot of DAC's have or are moving to the XMOS XU208/XU216 USB controller's. Not sure if it the problem is with the hardware or the software integration.

@JohnYang1997 - any idea's at Topping on how to fix the compatibility with Apple M1's ? Is there a similar problem with any other Topping DAC's and the Apple M1's?

 

[gryffe]

It's not that I don't like it, it is a superb DAC. But I have decided to go down a more portable route and will now use the Chord Hugo 2 DAC, which gives me the flexibility of using with my hifi rig in my listening room, and also late night listening with headphones in living room. The D90 does not allow me that flexibility unfortunately.

 

[hmscott]

It's not that I don't like it, it is a superb DAC. But I have decided to go down a more portable route and will now use the Chord Hugo 2 DAC, which gives me the flexibility of using with my hifi rig in my listening room, and also late night listening with headphones in living room. The D90 does not allow me that flexibility unfortunately.

Well, there is something to be said about having a dedicated desktop + mobile rig setups, so you don't need to tear down your desktop setup every time you want to go mobile. Eventually the connectors wear out...

I've used a BTR5 for mobile for a while, BTR3k too, and now FiiO has a new BTR5 2021 arriving in a few weeks, exciting stuff!
For me I find packaging everything up in a small zip up touring bag - IEM's, cables, BTR5 - makes a nice grab and go.

Or, I can take the FiiO M15 off the dock and go. But, it is much heavier than I really like to carry on a walk...better for working on the go...

I'm not sure how I am going to aclimate to the FiiO M17 coming next month.... The M17 is a bit of a physical upgrade from the M15:
Post #1
Post #2
Post #3

It's nice to have different sized options as permanent and semi-permanant options, without needing to tear down to go mobile.
And, I'm sure you'll enjoy the Chord Hugo 2 DAC, but it's a slippery slope leading to these beauties:

Imagine trying to explain that to the wife!

Good luck with your Hugo 2!

 

[ToxicRisk]

I can have a little price for a D90MQA, but before goin into it, I have to know if D90 MQA have an option to disable MQA Decoder/Filters ?
Because, some DAC with MQA decoder puts ALL content, regardless of whether it is MQA or not, through the MQA decoder/filter
How is this going to impact the sound of non-MQA content ?

 

[CJH]

I have a D70 and am looking to buy a D90 (AKM). In reference to the question of playing DSD in the 48K family--my D70 (and I assume the D90) plays 256DSD at 24.4 however it sounds quite off to me, slow and bass is bloated. Grand piano overtones just sound weird. It has been suggested on CA a cause may be playing 48K family with the 44.1K clock, so the music is playing slow. It was recommended: If you have some basic ADC you can check with 1 kHz tone for example if it is reproduced at correct frequency. Doesn't need to be a fancy sound card for that, probably motherboard audio on a regular PC or Mac is enough for the purpose. I have not seen anyone confirm this. Wonder if John Yang might accommodate this request (quote from Miska)
CJH

 

[sq225917]

It's the filters you have chosen, not the dac.

 

[CJH]

Tried different filters and that's not it. Happened to have Loggins and Messina Sittin' In (Again) on deck.--bass stinks, harmonies are a mess because both voices sound wrong, songs have no drive. Listening to an old song everyone has heard a million times (Danny's Song), it doesn't even sound like K. Loggins.
CJH

 

[ElNino]

I have a D70 and am looking to buy a D90 (AKM). In reference to the question of playing DSD in the 48K family--my D70 (and I assume the D90) plays 256DSD at 24.4 however it sounds quite off to me, slow and bass is bloated. Grand piano overtones just sound weird. It has been suggested on CA a cause may be playing 48K family with the 44.1K clock, so the music is playing slow. It was recommended: If you have some basic ADC you can check with 1 kHz tone for example if it is reproduced at correct frequency. Doesn't need to be a fancy sound card for that, probably motherboard audio on a regular PC or Mac is enough for the purpose. I have not seen anyone confirm this. Wonder if John Yang might accommodate this request (quote from Miska)
CJH

Notwithstanding John Yang's post above, wasn't there a previous thread on ASR about the D90 with some sort of argument between Miska and John Yang that the D90 didn't properly support DSD in the 48k family? You can probably find it if you do a search. Maybe this was before a firmware update?

 

[Veri]

Notwithstanding John Yang's post above, wasn't there a previous thread on ASR about the D90 with some sort of argument between Miska and John Yang that the D90 didn't properly support DSD in the 48k family? You can probably find it if you do a search. Maybe this was before a firmware update?

I think John said there will be no care or support for 48K DSD. Since it doesn't exist out of upsampling HQPlayer-like content. The DSD you purchase and find is 44k rate..

 

[CJH]

Thanks Veri. I found John's post about not supporting 48K. Too bad it can't/won't be fixed with an update.
CJH

 

[UCrazyKid]

I can have a little price for a D90MQA, but before goin into it, I have to know if D90 MQA have an option to disable MQA Decoder/Filters ?
Because, some DAC with MQA decoder puts ALL content, regardless of whether it is MQA or not, through the MQA decoder/filter
How is this going to impact the sound of non-MQA content ?

Yes, all content from the USB input (only, does not include the coax or optical inputs) pass through the XMOS XU216 chip where they are upsampled to 384KHz and passed through the MQA filter before being fed to the AK4499eq DAC for decoding. In my experience, it does not have an effect on the sound. The DAC up samples every thing to 768KHz/32 for processing anyway.
On the coax and Toslink inputs the XMOS chip is bypassed and the signal goes to the clocks and then the DAC and applies the chosen FIR filter (built into DAC). I’m 50 years old and can’t here above 12.5KHz anymore anyway so all the filters sound the same to me as any of the filters are just focused on harmonic artifacts in higher frequencies.

Question: is there another layer of high frequency artifact filtering if your speakers only produce up to 22KHz or 25KHz? I know some ribbons and others are now able to produce 40KHz.

 

[ToxicRisk]

Yes, all content from the USB input (only, does not include the coax or optical inputs) pass through the XMOS XU216 chip where they are upsampled to 384KHz and passed through the MQA filter before being fed to the AK4499eq DAC for decoding. In my experience, it does not have an effect on the sound. The DAC up samples every thing to 768KHz/32 for processing anyway.
On the coax and Toslink inputs the XMOS chip is bypassed and the signal goes to the clocks and then the DAC and applies the chosen FIR filter (built into DAC). I’m 50 years old and can’t here above 12.5KHz anymore anyway so all the filters sound the same to me as any of the filters are just focused on harmonic artifacts in higher frequencies.

Question: is there another layer of high frequency artifact filtering if your speakers only produce up to 22KHz or 25KHz? I know some ribbons and others are now able to produce 40KHz.

Great thanks, so everything goes through the chip, same for the D90 without MQA ?
V.

 

[UCrazyKid]

Great thanks, so everything goes through the chip, same for the D90 without MQA ?
V.

Everything coming in through USB goes through the XMOS XU216 chip and then on to the AK4499eq chip.

The non-MQA uses a XMOS XU208 chip for managing the USB interface. I’m not sure what happens in there, but obviously no MQA unfolding.

I have run my USB source into a Topping D10 (uses XMOS XU208) just to convert it to coax and then ran the coax into the D90 and don’t hear a difference.

 

[VeerK]

@JohnYang1997 does the AES input perform the same as the SPDIF or better or worse?

 

[JohnYang1997]

@JohnYang1997 does the AES input perform the same as the SPDIF or better or worse?

AES J-Test Fixed by Topping D90 DAC - L7Audiolab

在之前的测量中，我发现D90 AES接口的J-TEST问题很严重

www.l7audiolab.com

Topping D90市场抽测 - L7Audiolab

一个朋友寄给我他买的D90以进行市场随机抽测

www.l7audiolab.com

 

[spiritofjerry]

hmm, review for intona usb 3.0 isolator was not so good

That review was ineffective, since it didn't actually review what the unit was designed to do. It never measured eradication of ground loops, which are real issues.

As a very simple analogy, let's say I bought a fancy pair of polarizing sunglasses and tested them for visual distortion in the lens, but didn't find any I also never found any improvement, either -- so it just seems the performance is lackluster, just on par with my normal vision. However, I never even tested their polarizing filter, which is what they were designed for -- to solve glare, a real problem.

 

[Final]

That review was ineffective, since it didn't actually review what the unit was designed to do. It never measured eradication of ground loops, which are real issues.

As a very simple analogy, let's say I bought a fancy pair of polarizing sunglasses and tested them for visual distortion in the lens, but didn't find any I also never found any improvement, either -- so it just seems the performance is lackluster, just on par with my normal vision. However, I never even tested their polarizing filter, which is what they were designed for -- to solve glare, a real problem.

I agree. In my system ground loops in my laptop severely impaired the sound. No problem with my new Lenovo, but my old Asus gave noise issues almost as loud as the music itself. Tried a lot of noise cancellers but bothing worked. Enter the Intona ,(2.0) that is, and problem solved. On the Lenovo the Intona made no difference, because there were no problem to fix.

 

[hmscott]

Topping has taken the USB ground loop problem seriously and released 2 new products, one like the ifi iDefender+ and one like the various USB interfaces that have the USB isolation built-in plus interface re-configuration and coversion between data transports.

My Topping D90/A90 had lots of noise related issues to resolve, and it looks like Topping took the solution to heart, IDK if they copied ifi's iDefender+ or if it has other functions, but the Topping HS01 form factor is similar and costs the same as the ifi iDefender+, and has a metal case instead of plastic:

TOPPING HS01 USB 2.0 High Speed Audio Isolator
https://apos.audio/products/topping-hs01

Topping came out with a more elaborate solution + other digital interface features:

TOPPING U90 USB Bridge
https://apos.audio/products/topping-u90

The main Topping English website doesn't have these new products listed yet, and it looks like Apos got an exclusive, I received their newsletter announcing these new Topping products about 30 minutes ago.

And, now I hope Topping does the right thing and builds these noise abatement functions into their future DAC products.

Update: Here is a technical explainer PDF with more detailed information on what the iDefender+ does, I hope it clears up some confusion as to what the iDefender+ isn't doing as well:

https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Tech-notes_SilentPowerNoisebusters_Oct21.pdf

 

[spiritofjerry]

Topping has taken the USB ground loop problem seriously and released 2 new products, one like the ifi iDefender+ and one like the various USB interfaces that has the USB isolation built-in...

My D90/A90 had lots of noise related issues to resolve, and it looks like Topping took the solution to heart, IDK if they copied ifi's iDefender+
or if it has other functions, but the Topping HS01 form factor is similar and and costs the same as the ifi iDefender+, but has a metal case instead of plastic:

TOPPING HS01 USB 2.0 High Speed Audio Isolator
https://apos.audio/products/topping-hs01

Topping came out with a more elaborate solution + other digital interface features:

TOPPING U90 USB Bridge
https://apos.audio/products/topping-u90

The main Topping English website doesn't have these yet, and it looks like Apos got an exclusive, I received their newsletter announcing these new Topping products about 30 minutes ago.

And, now I hope Topping does the right thing and builds these noise abatement functions into their future DAC products.

Looks like the isolator is indeed a galvanic isolator, and is nothing like the ifi iDefender+, which is simply a ground lift. This would trounce the iDefender in usefulness if so. If the price on the HS01 is correct, $69, that is a HUGE bargain for galvanic isolation for USB 2.0 devices with a reputable name brand standing behind it.

The USB Bridge seems like a product that is super, super niche. I'm not even sure what it would be used for?

 

[hmscott]

Topping has taken the USB ground loop problem seriously and released 2 new products, one like the ifi iDefender+ and one like the various USB interfaces that has the USB isolation built-in...

My D90/A90 had lots of noise related issues to resolve, and it looks like Topping took the solution to heart, IDK if they copied ifi's iDefender+
or if it has other functions, but the Topping HS01 form factor is similar and costs the same as the ifi iDefender+, but has a metal case instead of plastic:

TOPPING HS01 USB 2.0 High Speed Audio Isolator
https://apos.audio/products/topping-hs01

Topping came out with a more elaborate solution + other digital interface features:

TOPPING U90 USB Bridge
https://apos.audio/products/topping-u90

The main Topping English website doesn't have these yet, and it looks like Apos got an exclusive, I received their newsletter announcing these new Topping products about 30 minutes ago.

And, now I hope Topping does the right thing and builds these noise abatement functions into their future DAC products.

Looks like the isolator is indeed a galvanic isolator, and is nothing like the ifi iDefender+, which is simply a ground lift. This would trounce the iDefender in usefulness if so. If the price on the HS01 is correct, $69, that is a HUGE bargain for galvanic isolation for USB 2.0 devices with a reputable name brand standing behind it.

There is no mention of "galvanic Isolation" in the HS01 product description. What makes you believe it has that functionality?

The only "trick" I see is their realization that the length of their device can be measured with a signal delay of 0.29 microseconds

"Low latency
Unlike many USB devices, which have a latency of 5 to 20 milliseconds, the HS01 has a latency of only 0.29 microseconds, which fully meets the needs of audiophile applications."

And, in the HS01 description there is no mention of "galvanic Isolation" either - which would cause "higher latency" as Toppings text suggests.

The HS01 text says only that it is a USB Isolator with ultra low latency - basically the cable distance added by the unit - which you get when you clip the power/ground and isolate the next device connected in the USB line from the Source power line noise.

Look at the diagrams as well shown for the use cases of the HS01, with and without external power added - the same as the ifi iDefender+ use cases.

The USB Bridge seems like a product that is super, super niche. I'm not even sure what it would be used for?

Topping's new U90 claims "USB Isolation", which is not actual "Galvanic Isolation"...so neither of them add this helpful functionality. It would have been nice if Topping did introduce "galvonic Isolation" with these devices, but the price would have been higher. Perhaps Topping is holding features back to put in their next Flagship DAC?

I'll have to read up on and perhaps try out the U90 to understand more it's potential uses, other than interface conversion and I2S compatibility.

Update: Here is a technical explainer PDF with more detailed information on what the iDefender+ does, I hope it clears up some confusion as to what the iDefender+ isn't doing as well:

https://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Tech-notes_SilentPowerNoisebusters_Oct21.pdf