• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Topping D90 Balanced USB DAC Review

hmscott

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 17, 2020
Messages
604
Likes
493
I suggest you to buy such things only if they can be returned in case they don't (sufficiently) help.
My candidates are iDefender (to cancel ground loop) and iSilencer (ANC to cancel other type of computer noise than ground loop).
iDefender works best with additional power supply, iPower is recommended. Older and cheaepr versions of these products may be okay too. But take care about the return policy before you buy anything.
Yup, in fact when I asked the USA / Ebay representative for Jenving if I can return the Supra AGS-10k if it doesn't solve my problem - it costs $126 - there was a delay in response and they ended up saying:

"Unfortunately, the hum-buster won't deal with the problem you mention."

I would have thought breaking the RCA ground through torrid core transformer isolation - with the care stated for isolating grounds on input vs output, but they said it wouldn't, so I am not going to order it.

I followed up with a restatement of my configuration / specific problems and how it's down to connecting the RCA interconnects bringing the noise from the PC through the D90 to the A90, and asked if Jenving might have any recommendations for other vendor hardware. I'll report if they come up with anything interesting.

I'm going to keep the Supra USB cable as I'm enjoying the sound compared to the Tripp Lite with 2 ferrite cores, and neither completely gets rid of the GPU compute birdies anyway. I'm probably not going to find an appropriate ferrite core mix to reduce the noise, and I did ask Jenving as well if they had any suggestions for their cable and ferrite core compatibility.

And, in the middle of all this I am watching review video's for new motherboards with the Gigabyte Aorus B550 Master and X570 Master as my main choices and ran across this poor guy debugging a similar PC USB audio noise problem in his review build of the B550 Master.

He solved the noise on USB connection with the ifi Defender. I really wanted to avoid buying this, but it looks like the last of the noise issue needs something besides simple shielded and ferrite wrapped cables.

Gigabyte helped by sending the X570 Master, a duplicate B550 Master and a couple of other B550 models - which ended up helping solve the problem(s) and changing his motherboard choice - back to my pre-B550 choice the x570 Master.

The first B550 Master was buggy. Interesting Case grounding interaction too with the R6 case I was also going to get... now I'm looking for another case.

If you are interested in this sort of thing I recommend watching the whole vid + his previous, the link below starts at "I Figured It Out!"

9:07 - Update: I Figured It Out!
0:00 - The Problem
2:02 - Ground Loop Issues
5:22 - Bench Test
6:19 - Testing 2nd B550 Master
7:09 - B550 VISION D First Impressions
9:07 - Update: I Figured It Out!
11:37 - Audio Interference Causes
14:26 - Quick Motherboard Comparison
I Was WRONG About These AORUS AMD Motherboards

Note: in case you already don't know this and didn't watch the video, you'll want to avoid RGB Memory if you want to avoid noise induced by them - and likely other RGB - as the high pitched sound he hears was from the RGB memory, likely the "dimmer" controller. Even after solving all the issues to root cause, he still needs the ifi Defender to stop the GPU noise. Sigh...

I'm actually in a pretty good spot right now with my B450 3700x 2070 Super USB noise situation. I have no noise with the XLR only, and by adding the RCA connections to the mix I don't have any added noise now with the Supra USB cable - unless I use GPU compute. There is probably additional noise coming along that ground path that aren't "audible" but suck amp resouces - those I would like to get rid of too.

On Amazon US the ifi Defender+ in A/A configuration has shot up to $110 with the other configurations being much cheaper - $49 ...

I found another Amazon listing as a $125 bundle iFi iDefender+ CA + iPowerX 5V (save $24 with bundle) that I can use to test with / without the power with the D90 MQA (and other powered USB devices), I'll report back on how that works out. There is a cheaper $89 iFi iDefender+ CA + iPower 5V bundle (save $9 with bundle) with the previous design iPower (non-X) power supply, I went with the newer iPowerX (bundle).

I really didn't want to get a "dongle" solution, but it's a lot cheaper than the other isolator / converter alternatives and the ground breaker + external power solution should be transparent to the audio.
 
Last edited:

tonapo

Active Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2019
Messages
151
Likes
78
I am looking at a second D90, to sit on my desk in addition to my main listening space. However, to sit on my desk I would probably have to switch the Pre-amp back on to use the volume control. I would need to connect to the DAC via USB (for Roon) and via optical (for PC use).

I run Roon with a USBridge Sig into the Topping and then out, via XLR, to some Adam F5 monitors. Whereas in my main set-up I use HQ Player, I will use Roon to upsample to DS256.

I can't seem to find another option that works. I need any setting to be fairly close, in terms of volume level, between the USB and optical connections as this is a family computer.

If I feed the DAC DSD 256 via Roon, but have the pre-amp enabled, will the DAC be in only DSD mode?
 
Last edited:

UCrazyKid

Active Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2019
Messages
185
Likes
238
Location
NW Chicago Suburbs
I’m having a problem. The female RCA digital coax input does not allow my cable to be inserted far enough to get a solid grip by the cable onto the input. It seems the center pin hole is too shallow to allow the cable outer contacts to adequately grip. Has anyone else run into this? The cable (Blue Jeans Cables) uses Canare ends that are industry standard in dimensions and pin length. The assumption is the coax input RCA female is not to spec or defective being too shallow or blocked.
Has anyone else experienced this? I’d like to hear from anyone before I contact my vendor (Apos) regarding a defective unit return. Thank you.
 

Dclone

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2020
Messages
53
Likes
46
Yep. Audiophoolery at its highest.
I’m having a problem. The female RCA digital coax input does not allow my cable to be inserted far enough to get a solid grip by the cable onto the input. It seems the center pin hole is too shallow to allow the cable outer contacts to adequately grip. Has anyone else run into this? The cable (Blue Jeans Cables) uses Canare ends that are industry standard in dimensions and pin length. The assumption is the coax input RCA female is not to spec or defective being too shallow or blocked.
Has anyone else experienced this? I’d like to hear from anyone before I contact my vendor (Apos) regarding a defective unit return. Thank you.
Nope. On my D90 (and DX7/S and for my SMSL SU-9, bought directly from Shazhen thats why I mention them ) the holes are deep enough for every cable i have used. I can measure the hole depth if You want?
 

Dclone

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2020
Messages
53
Likes
46
I meausered the depth of the female RCA holes out of curiosity. I used a digital, electronic, caliper. Results: D90 = 15,71 mm. DX7/S = 15,72 mm. SMSL SU-9 = 15,77 mm. That would be roughly about 0,618 inches (if I am not wrong... We use metric scale in Sweden). Maybe that Will help someone.
 

Jimbob54

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 25, 2019
Messages
11,066
Likes
14,700
I’m having a problem. The female RCA digital coax input does not allow my cable to be inserted far enough to get a solid grip by the cable onto the input. It seems the center pin hole is too shallow to allow the cable outer contacts to adequately grip. Has anyone else run into this? The cable (Blue Jeans Cables) uses Canare ends that are industry standard in dimensions and pin length. The assumption is the coax input RCA female is not to spec or defective being too shallow or blocked.
Has anyone else experienced this? I’d like to hear from anyone before I contact my vendor (Apos) regarding a defective unit return. Thank you.

Do you have any other RCA plugs to try- rule out the cable some how being wrong? Ive had cables with cuffs too tight or loose, wobbly female RCAs but never a device that couldnt accept the pin.
 

UCrazyKid

Active Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2019
Messages
185
Likes
238
Location
NW Chicago Suburbs
I meausered the depth of the female RCA holes out of curiosity. I used a digital, electronic, caliper. Results: D90 = 15,71 mm. DX7/S = 15,72 mm. SMSL SU-9 = 15,77 mm. That would be roughly about 0,618 inches (if I am not wrong... We use metric scale in Sweden). Maybe that Will help someone.
I used a tooth pick, I know, not quite as scientific. But what I found was the female was about 1/8” shallower on the DAC, than on my transport. I used a magnifier and light to peer into the female side and see nothing blocking or out of place. It funny because I do have other cables I have tried, they fo to full depth. I’m going to keep experimenting. Wayne over at Blue Jeans Cable was very helpful. Once I have collected all the details I will approach Topping.
Thanks everybody.
 

Harmonie

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
May 30, 2020
Messages
1,927
Likes
2,084
Location
France
I used a tooth pick, I know, not quite as scientific. But what I found was the female was about 1/8” shallower on the DAC, than on my transport. I used a magnifier and light to peer into the female side and see nothing blocking or out of place. It funny because I do have other cables I have tried, they fo to full depth. I’m going to keep experimenting. Wayne over at Blue Jeans Cable was very helpful. Once I have collected all the details I will approach Topping.
Thanks everybody.

Do you have this issue only on the digital coax ? How about the analogue RCA outputs ? All 3 should be same.
 

UCrazyKid

Active Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2019
Messages
185
Likes
238
Location
NW Chicago Suburbs
Do you have this issue only on the digital coax ? How about the analogue RCA outputs ? All 3 should be same.
Only on the digital coax. The RCA outputs are different, they are not chassis mounted connections.
 

Dclone

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2020
Messages
53
Likes
46
Only on the digital coax. The RCA outputs are different, they are not chassis mounted connections.
Strange...? All of my RCA outputs have the same hole depth. I think You maybe have got a somewhat defective piece. I would drill the hole deeper myself (I have the tools for that and hate waiting for returns) or return it IF it differs from the other RCA outputs.
 

hmscott

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
May 17, 2020
Messages
604
Likes
493
I’m having a problem. The female RCA digital coax input does not allow my cable to be inserted far enough to get a solid grip by the cable onto the input. It seems the center pin hole is too shallow to allow the cable outer contacts to adequately grip. Has anyone else run into this? The cable (Blue Jeans Cables) uses Canare ends that are industry standard in dimensions and pin length. The assumption is the coax input RCA female is not to spec or defective being too shallow or blocked.
Has anyone else experienced this? I’d like to hear from anyone before I contact my vendor (Apos) regarding a defective unit return. Thank you.
Strange...? All of my RCA outputs have the same hole depth. I think You maybe have got a somewhat defective piece. I would drill the hole deeper myself (I have the tools for that and hate waiting for returns) or return it IF it differs from the other RCA outputs.
No, you don't want to do that :)

As you drill the "shavings" are dropping into the D90 Chassis - ready to "roll around and have fun" next time you move it. And the shavings might not be well behaved - bounce and fly - landing on something conductive.

Also the connector might have physical containment at the end that you might drill through - including the wire / solder blob, detaching the wire.

If they kitted the wrong connector and the assembly people didn't notice - or QA didn't catch the wrong connector on acceptance the connector will need to be replaced. Most unlikely.

I don't want to recommend opening it up, but I have had situations where the connector "hole throughs" at the end of the connector was too attractive for a fresh assembly person and they ran the bare wire through both ends of the tines coming out of the connector - effectively blocking the center pole of the connector when it is plugged in - clipping inside the tines on both sides can work, or unsoldering and looping the bare wire through only one tine to keep the connector path free is the fix. With coax simply re-dressing the bulky cable to free the center conductor path can also work - no unsoldering / resoldering rework is needed.
 

bogi

Active Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
238
Likes
170
Location
Slovakia
If I feed the DAC DSD 256 via Roon, but have the pre-amp enabled, will the DAC be in only DSD mode?
HQPlayer is the only player able to perform volume control in DSD domain.
If Roon is is accessing volume of DAC chip, then the answer is no, because volume control is DSP and AKM chip is not able to perform that in DSD domain. No direct DSD path anymore, although D90 driver Control Panel should show DSD bitrate.
If Roon does its own volume control then DSD is converted to PCM to do that, so the direct DSD path is broken. In such a case your D90 driver Control Panel should show PCM sample rate instead of DSD one.
The solution is to use HQPlayer for volume control.
 
Last edited:

bogi

Active Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
238
Likes
170
Location
Slovakia
There is probably additional noise coming along that ground path that aren't "audible" but suck amp resouces - those I would like to get rid of too.
It could be high frequency noise which intermodulates into audible range in analog domain (in analog section of your DAC and/or in your AMP).
 

tonapo

Active Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2019
Messages
151
Likes
78
HQPlayer is the only player able to perform volume control in DSD domain.
If Roon is is accessing volume of DAC chip, then the answer is no, because volume control is DSP and AKM chip is not able to perform that in DSD domain. No direct DSD path anymore, although D90 driver Control Panel should show DSD bitrate.
If Roon does its own volume control then DSD is converted to PCM to do that, so the direct DSD path is broken. In such a case your D90 driver Control Panel should show PCM sample rate instead of DSD one.
The solution is to use HQPlayer for volume control.

Thanks for the reply @bogi.

I currently have Roon volume control as 'fixed', with Roon upsampling to DSD256. It shows this in the Roon signal path, which also still shows 'enhanced'. If I look at the DAC itself, it also reports 11.28MHz and DSD. However I do have the pre-amp enabled currently. Is the direct DSD path broken?

I could in theory use HQ Player, but have dismissed that up until now as I didnt want to have to fiddle around between my desktop and main listening endpoint and the various settings. It would be useful if HQPlayer had specific endpoint settings.
 

bogi

Active Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
238
Likes
170
Location
Slovakia
Thanks for the reply @bogi.

I currently have Roon volume control as 'fixed', with Roon upsampling to DSD256. It shows this in the Roon signal path, which also still shows 'enhanced'. If I look at the DAC itself, it also reports 11.28MHz and DSD. However I do have the pre-amp enabled currently. Is the direct DSD path broken?

I could in theory use HQ Player, but have dismissed that up until now as I didnt want to have to fiddle around between my desktop and main listening endpoint and the various settings. It would be useful if HQPlayer had specific endpoint settings.
If 'pre-amp enabled' means D90 setting and not Roon setting, then it is IMO broken.
If Roon would adjust the volume in PCM domain yet before PCM is converted to DSD and if your DAC volume is set to 0dB, then it would not be broken.
I don't know Roon but if your DAC volume is 0dB and you still can adjust volume, then it is done by Roon.
 

tonapo

Active Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2019
Messages
151
Likes
78
If 'pre-amp enabled' means D90 setting and not Roon setting, then it is IMO broken.
If Roon would adjust the volume in PCM domain yet before PCM is converted to DSD and if your DAC volume is set to 0dB, then it would not be broken.
I don't know Roon but if your DAC volume is 0dB and you still can adjust volume, then it is done by Roon.

Yes, the pre-amp is enabled on the Topping D90, and I change volume via the remote, I cannot change volume in Roon with these settings.
 

bogi

Active Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2020
Messages
238
Likes
170
Location
Slovakia
Yes, the pre-amp is enabled on the Topping D90, and I change volume via the remote, I cannot change volume in Roon with these settings.
Try HQPlayer trial ... for easy start I would recommend poly-sinc-xtr-2s as oversampling filter and ASDM7 as modulator, DSD128 is sufficient.
 

kopczas

Active Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2020
Messages
260
Likes
154
Question about MQA:
if CD (one of those japan mqa cds) was ripped bit to bit with EAC ripper, will it be recognized by mqa software in D90 and would be decoded as streamed files?
 
Top Bottom