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Topping D90 Balanced USB DAC Review

magic44ken

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Hello everyone, I have had D90 topping for about a week and I can only confirm what the MEASURES declare. The D90 topping is a fabulous dac that currently has few rivals. I compared it with an audiophile dac R2R or the Aqua dac La scala MKII optologic and there was no match. The D90 was more open, more precise, more detailed, and the instruments were better separated and scanned, and it was also at a disadvantage towards Aqua, as the D90 was attached to a standard USB socket of the pc while the Aqua was attached via I2S to a Pink faun bridge.
The measurements really tell you what device you have, forget about the esoteric and R2R magic appliances. On my system I have not noticed this magical component that goes beyond the measures.
Truly a really nice product and I can only thank first of all audioscience review (that if it were not for this site I would never have discovered how good there is around at moderate prices) and then topping that has created an exceptional product. Good.

Nice review! Can I ask you a qucok question. How natural is the sound (timbre) with the new AK4499 compare to the other R2R DAC you have? Thanks
 

Ema79

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[QUOTE = "BDWoody, post: 345319, membro: 5463"] Sto solo lanciando questo ... dato che si tratta di un forum scientifico ...

Questi tipi di recensioni di ascolto sono notoriamente inaffidabili se non viene fatto alcuno sforzo per eliminare la distorsione nel processo.

Se non stai confrontando questi dispositivi utilizzando un processo cieco abbinato a livello, i risultati saranno praticamente privi di significato.

Questo è uno dei motivi principali per cui non vedi quasi mai le recensioni poetiche a lungo fiorite qui ... perché possono essere ben intenzionate, ma gli effetti psicoacustici sono reali e devono essere considerati.

A meno che un DAC (decente) o un altro dispositivo elettronico non si rompa in qualche modo (o abbia una sorta di disadattamento dell'impedenza ... che sarebbe prevedibile) sentire ovvie differenze evidenti dalla prima misura non è ciò che sentirai dopo aver controllato il processo. [/ QUOTE]
Just throwing this out there...since this is a science forum...

These kinds of listening reviews are notoriously unreliable if there is no effort made to eliminate bias in the process.

If you aren't comparing these devices using a level matched blind process, the results are going to be virtually meaningless.

That's one of the main reasons you almost never see the long flowery poetic reviews here...because they may be well intentioned, but psychoacoustic effects are real and have to be considered.

Unless a (decent) DAC or other electronic device is broken somehow (or has some kind of impedance mismatch...which would be predictable) hearing obvious clear differences from the first measure isn't what you'll hear once you have controlled the process.

I also reviewed the dac section of the D90 topping as well as the preamp section.
If my judgment can be wrong (which could easily happen) then the judgment regarding the dac section would also be wrong.
I am not a Sunday listener .... I have been in the hi-fi world for 20 years and I should know home is good and what is not, So even if I have not specified it, I have equalized the levels.
The blind test does not make sense because the difference between the apparatuses is not minimal and is noticeable as day and night, especially with the audio tracks that I know in the smallest details.
 

BDWoody

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I am not a Sunday listener .... I have been in the hi-fi world for 20 years and I should know home is good and what is not, So even if I have not specified it, I have equalized the levels.

How did you do this?
What voltage did you settle on?

The blind test does not make sense because the difference between the apparatuses is not minimal and is noticeable as day and night, especially with the audio tracks that I know in the smallest details.

That's the common belief, but unless something was broken or poorly set up, day and night differences aren't what you'll be hearing.

I'm not saying you aren't hearing what you describe...I'm saying you won't hear it anymore if you actually do this as a level matched double blind test. The differences you describe are what every subjective 'reviewer' hears...until they don't peek.
 

Ema79

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Nice review! Can I ask you a qucok question. How natural is the sound (timbre) with the new AK4499 compare to the other R2R DAC you have? Thanks

the new 4499 chip by akm is certainly very natural, I would certainly say superior to the saber.
The R2R I tried (it's not owned by me but by a friend) really worse. And listening to this is noticeable to such an extent that the nuances of the sound and its details disappear, but the sound is rounded thanks to distortion. Some like it, I don't. Someone could interpret the total lack of detail and nuances of the Aqua R2R as natural because the sound is at the bottom of the distortion, creating a particular sound. As there are those who like to listen to the distortion of the third harmonic. People get used to that type of sound which, due to their conviction, becomes natural.
 

BDWoody

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the new 4499 chip by akm is certainly very natural, I would certainly say superior to the saber.

So, we're back to asking based on what?

Which chip is used is irrelevant to the resulting sound, assuming competent execution. Pick a top tier DAC from each chip camp, do a matched DBT and the differences won't be there.

The whole industry is based on creating doubt where there need be none.

The R2R thing is basically like making a coal driven steam engine for a car... Might be able to get one to work properly, but it would be very hard, and would have no purpose other than as an interesting challenge or as a piece of weird 'art.'

A couple have measured very well (meaning...would be audibly transparent to source), but most seem to be garbage.

This is one of the epic reviews on here...


https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...and-measurements-of-totaldac-d1-six-dac.8192/
 

magic44ken

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the new 4499 chip by akm is certainly very natural, I would certainly say superior to the saber.

Thanks. Same here. I didn't eally like any of Saber DAC. Not musical enough and little unnatural when listen to jazz even though they have great detail.

Have you listen to any of Schiit R2R DAC before? Schiit Bifrost 2 is pretty popular DAC for there naturalness, clarity, detail and spaciousness presentation but with no preamp. I'm hoping Topping going to release a dual ak4499 like the Gustard AA2. What's so interesting about A22 is that it uses discrete class-A output stage. I wonder how much different compare to opamp.
 

Veri

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Thanks. Same here. I didn't eally like any of Saber DAC. Not musical enough and little unnatural when listen to jazz even though they have great detail.

Have you listen to any of Schiit R2R DAC before? Schiit Bifrost 2 is pretty popular DAC for there naturalness, clarity, detail and spaciousness presentation but with no preamp. I'm hoping Topping going to release a dual ak4499 like the Gustard AA2. What's so interesting about A22 is that it uses discrete class-A output stage. I wonder how much different compare to opamp.
but with no pre-amp ?? what would it matter?
discrete instead of op-amp ?? dual ak4499 vs single ?

We literally got all audiophile myths in one post :rolleyes:
 

magic44ken

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but with no pre-amp ?? what would it matter?
discrete instead of op-amp ?? dual ak4499 vs single ?

We literally got all audiophile myths in one post :rolleyes:

Darn it. I forgot this can be controversial questions to ask in here. I apologize but was really curious how the new ak4499 stack up. I'm no audiophile myself.
 

BDWoody

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Thanks. Same here. I didn't eally like any of Saber DAC. Not musical enough and little unnatural when listen to jazz even though they have great detail.

Have you listen to any of Schiit R2R DAC before? Schiit Bifrost 2 is pretty popular DAC for there naturalness, clarity, detail and spaciousness presentation but with no preamp. I'm hoping Topping going to release a dual ak4499 like the Gustard AA2. What's so interesting about A22 is that it uses discrete class-A output stage. I wonder how much different compare to opamp.

Uh huh...
 

BDWoody

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. I'm no audiophile myself.

Well, that's a good place to start...because I don't think most of us would describe ourselves that way either.
I would say I am a Hi Fi enthusiast...as in...high fidelity (accuracy).

First piece of advice...don't listen to audiophiles...learn a bit of science and you can leave all that behind...
 

Veri

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Darn it. I forgot this can be controversial questions to ask in here. I apologize but was really curious how the new ak4499 stack up. I'm no audiophile myself.
it's OK. it's just, none of those things mentioned were ever, ever verified here on ASR. None of amir's measurements show:
-improvement in op-amps over the original engineer's implementation
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rolling-replacing-op-amps-in-topping-d10-dac.4576
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/rolling-op-amps-in-gustard-h20-headphone-amplifier.7407
-difference in one DAC chip over two (except for minor improvement in crosstalk)
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/measurements-of-rme-adi-2-dac-and-headphone-amp.7546
the RME ADI-2 is one of the best AKM DAC implementations and it uses just one chip.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-d90-balanced-usb-dac-review.10519
same thing with topping D90, just one chip, top tier performance... two chips does not mean better performance.
-the pre-amp part, check out freya 2 passive mode... https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-freya-s-preamplifier-review.10960 it literally adds/removes nothing from the original signal. If you hear differences here, it's all in your head..

Yet other forums, like head-fi or SBAF will embrace sabre/akm "sound signatures", op-amp rolling, dual chip sounding better, pre-amps being an absolute requirement.. etc. Objectively it's all bull.
 

Yviena

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Has there ever been done blind tests for digital filters/modulators with people with relatively young hearing who can hear 16khz+, maybe differences in sound can be found there?
 

Matias

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Has there ever been done blind tests for digital filters/modulators with people with relatively young hearing who can hear 16khz+, maybe differences in sound can be found there?
Search Archimago's blog.
 

Spocko

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Has there ever been done blind tests for digital filters/modulators with people with relatively young hearing who can hear 16khz+, maybe differences in sound can be found there?
My guess is NO, simply because DBX testing is incredibly hard to setup properly not to mention the electronics used to switch between the various sources for comparison need to be quieter and not introduce its own noise/distortion. It's very difficult to isolate the digital component being tested. For example, if you wanted to compare the difference between R2R, Sabre and AKM DAC sections, you would have to build 3 identical DACs connecting to each of those chips but this is impossible. So you end up testing the entire unit, choosing the best representative of each DAC, but now you are not truly testing the chip itself but rather the designer/engineer's implementation of that chip, and yet the chip gets all the credit when in fact it was the engineer who figured out the best way to bring out the best sound quality from that chip - this same engineer could have made any DAC chip sound awesome. It's like building a boat and deciding between teak or cedar, and you build an awesome boat using teak but everybody gives credit to the choice of wood and not the boatbuilder.
 

rebbiputzmaker

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So, we're back to asking based on what?

Which chip is used is irrelevant to the resulting sound, assuming competent execution. Pick a top tier DAC from each chip camp, do a matched DBT and the differences won't be there.

The whole industry is based on creating doubt where there need be none.

The R2R thing is basically like making a coal driven steam engine for a car... Might be able to get one to work properly, but it would be very hard, and would have no purpose other than as an interesting challenge or as a piece of weird 'art.'

A couple have measured very well (meaning...would be audibly transparent to source), but most seem to be garbage.

This is one of the epic reviews on here...


https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...and-measurements-of-totaldac-d1-six-dac.8192/
You make valid points. What is the system you usually listen with?
 

BDWoody

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You make valid points. What is the system you usually listen with?

My Stereo speakers are JBL 708p's, and I am using a Velodyne 12" and 2 Hsu 10" subs.

I also have another 708p as a center channel, and 6x705p for the surrounds when it's movie time.

I am feeding them with an Integra 80.3 through the analog in, but have also connected directly through aes (digital), and noticed no difference, and have also fed directly with a number of different DAC's, most recently the SMSL M500, but again noticed no differences.
None of these comparisons were done in a controlled way...but nothing about any of the connections made me think I needed to even check.
 

Alderaan_Null

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This Topping D90 has piqued my interest. I still have a brand new Topping D70 in the box from last year that I have never used (got it right before we moved and just finishing up the home office now). Its the non Bluetooth version so the fact that D90 has BT already also helps.

Has anyone done any listing with the D90 over BT? I wouldn't use it for critical listening but would be nice to just pay something from my laptop/phone/tablet for convience? Is there a big hit to audio?

Might just sell my D70 since its never used and put that towards the D90.... hmm...

Amp I would use is either MassDrop 789 or Monoprice 887 (Have both still in boxes as well LOL)
 

Nicolaas

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This Topping D90 has piqued my interest. I still have a brand new Topping D70 in the box from last year that I have never used (got it right before we moved and just finishing up the home office now). Its the non Bluetooth version so the fact that D90 has BT already also helps.

Has anyone done any listing with the D90 over BT? I wouldn't use it for critical listening but would be nice to just pay something from my laptop/phone/tablet for convience? Is there a big hit to audio?

Might just sell my D70 since its never used and put that towards the D90.... hmm...

Amp I would use is either MassDrop 789 or Monoprice 887 (Have both still in boxes as well LOL)

I listened several hours to the D90 via BT and the sound quality is quite good. I use USB audioplayer pro on both my Andoid tablet and Android phone and connected to the D90 via BT. In the developer options of my Android Samsung tablet and Huawei phone it is possible to switch on the Aptx or Aptx HD codec which gives very good results in my situation. Playing via BT from phone or tablet is very convenient/satisfying!
Besides I also connected the D90 via USB to my old Vaio laptop (recently upgraded with 1TB Samsung qvo SSD) with Linux Mint Xfce and Audacious/ALSA as my audio player. I only have lossless FLAC SD and HD files.
 
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