Topping D70S fried my speakers...

[TonyJZX]

The thing is you should be treating a dac like any kind of 'source'... i dont trust the volume on those things... i would always put a preamp between this and the power amp you're using. This has always been the case going back decades.

To me even a D90 or SU10 high end unit should be treated the same as a basic D10s that is without a volume control.

Its either this or go back to an integrated or receiver where this *shouldnt* be an issue.

A volume control on a dac is a mere convenience feature not to be trusted.

A volume control on a preamp or integrated or receiver really is the only thing you should trust.

It shouldnt be that way but experience tells you it is.

 

[amirm]

i would always put a preamp between this and the power amp you're using.

How is that any kind of safety? I have had analog systems (including mine) blast music at full volume many times. All you have to do is brush against the volume control, or have it at much higher volume for a faint source.

Just today, i was driving while playing Amazon music streaming. The sound seemed low even though I had the volume set to max. So I compensated and was enjoying the music until Google map decided to announce the next turn. Oh man. I have never had my car audio system get so loud!!! It nearly blew my ears out! As I noted, this kind of thing happens. Only pro gear has compression built-in and even then, it is no panacea.

 

[TonyJZX]

I suppose if you have one of those machines with a volume control that has no markings and is analog and you have it maxxed out then yes, I guess you can have volume accidents. I always tend to view the LCD display to see what the 'final' volume is supposed to be.

I've had similar things were you're in Windows and youre playing a 24/96 source which naturally had a low volume and then youtube ads play and you get all the power at once.

I havent had this issue in a while to the degree others in this thread has.. I have a digital preamp that Ive messed up the setup as it only goes from 40-80 and I have that running to an SMSL a300... which has its own volume control.... so you have to mess up on both devices to have an accident.

 

[kchap]

It's always a risk, but I find software volume control just to convenient not to use. I did make sure to match the DAC to the amp. There were a couple of incidents with my streamer during initial setup and/or changing DACs. Fortunately, my speakers survived.

I am tempted by the thought of a new amp based around the new Hypex Nilai 500 or the latest Purifi, but that extra power will increase the danger to my speakers.

 

[amirm]

It's always a risk, but I find software volume control just to convenient not to use.

Definitely agree about software volume controls. At least with hardware, you can quickly reach the volume and crank it way down. With software, fumbling with the UI and such would be an eternity.

 

[Cars-N-Cans]

... never thought of the F208s as "entry level".

In the grand scheme of things for us plebs, no. Most certainly not! But I would say they are a bit further down the line than their more posh models, relatively speaking. I don't say that to degrade them. But they may not have as substantial protection in place in the event an amp goes full tilt into them, if there is any at all, which was what I was trying to get at. I think it would be worth checking to see if the tweeter has indeed bit the dust. But I don't know how far the OP would be interested in digging into his own gear.

 

[Matias]

I hate this experience too. Never trusted software digital attenuation because of updates and bam your drivers are fried.

With a DAC to power amp I would choose a power amp with gain switch or last resort add in line XLR attenuators. Never trust digital volume controls. Analog is more unlikely to rotate the knob accidentally imo.

 

[Marc v E]

Just an idea for people using a dac as preamp who want to prevent full volume: if my speakers didn't have a protection circuit build in, I would use an attenuator. Like described here:

Beolab + 3rd party source with a high-level output

#80 in a series of articles about the technology behind Bang & Olufsen loudspeakers This week, I was asked a very specific question about connecting an older pair of Beolab …

www.tonmeister.ca

 

[Deleted member 48726]

It must have been more than 30 of my posts saying that a dac plugged straight on an amp is an accident waiting to happen sooner or later.
There not such thing as a perfect firmware and all digital stuff "forget" their settings,rarely admittedly but they do,and it only takes one time to do the damage.
That's the reason I still rely on an analog electronic xover,that's the reason I never consider changing the nice analog Alps pot of my pre.
I couldn't care less about the less SINAD that causes as long as it is transparent enough for me and more importantly gives me security (let alone that I can play DSD without 3647634573 hacks).

I'm really sorry that something like this happened to you,my only advice is to get a pre with a nice physical knob that matches your power amp and make it the center of your system.
Peace of mind is priceless.

Well, you should adjust the gain or volume on the amp to the highest personal listening level. Then it's just high volume and not damaging volume.

 

[Roland68]

I don't know why but today when I switched on the Topping D70S the volume was at -0db. Of course, i never set the volume so high, and usually the dac reminds the volume of the previous time, but not today. Result: the amplifier fried the tweeter of one loudspeaker. I don't know what the Topping engineers were thinking when they designed this Dac without any option to set a maximum volume, or what was in their mind when they decided that when the Dac was switched on it could randomly start at -0db and not, say, at -90db.
Just a warning for the users/buyers and a pray for the manufacturer: please provide a decent firmware upgrade to solve the issue.

Please don't be angry with me if I say it so directly, but a normal DAC is basically not designed for direct connection to a power amplifier or active loudspeakers.
I'm sorry for your loss, but I find it irresponsible that you would choose such a lurid headline for this thread and blame the manufacturer for something that is clearly your fault.
I hope you understand the damage this can do to the manufacturer.
But of course that's just my opinion.

But in this and many other forums there have been warnings about exactly this problem, so often that you don't want to hear it anymore, but it still doesn't seem to be enough.
The volume reduction feature on a DAC's outputs is just that, a volume reduction feature!
Any normal DAC with a volume control option will initially be at full volume when switched on and that's right, it's a source device, nothing else.
Since these devices are set to full volume when delivered, this can be the case again at any time when they are switched on, it is the normal state of these devices. I've also experienced that when a cable is connected or a problem occurs on the USB bus, such a device resets and returns to the "normal state", i.e. full volume.

Of course you can use such a DAC with this volume control function, but then you are also responsible for using it responsibly.
There has been an unwritten law for decades on how to turn audio components on (from source to output) or off (output to source). Of course, you always have to pay attention to the volume control before switching on power amplifiers, amplifiers or active loudspeakers.

 

[Rja4000]

As another example, we had a $120K Wisdom audio system in our theater at work. During Room EQ, if you didn't take one specific step, it would feedback from the mic into the system and play at full volume! It was incredibly scary the first time I experienced it! From then on, my fingers would shake every time I hit the go button on EQ process!

You need a feedback killer in the path...

dbx AFS2

Hear No Evil and See no Evil. The AFS2 Advanced Feedback Suppression processor has been complete...

dbxpro.com

 

[Sokel]

Well, you should adjust the gain or volume on the amp to the highest personal listening level. Then it's just high volume and not damaging volume.

Not all power amps have selectable gain (mine are Ice Power Edge ones close to 2KW of power total in their bursts) and in an active setup like mine I like the power amps to be the last thing I'll ever worry.
Nope,it will take some time and heavy convincing myself to skip my pre with it's analog controled VC (plus looks and nice remote control).

 

[amarsicola]

...
I hope you understand the damage this can do to the manufacturer.

Well, i hope the manufacturer understands what damage happened to me. I wouldn't bet on him appearing in this discussion.

..
Since these devices are set to full volume when delivered, this can be the case again at any time when they are switched on, it is the normal state of these devices. .

I disagree. The manufacturer makes huge claims of the preamp capability of this product. The "normal state" you describe is a parameter in a software, we are talking about digital volume control here. I am just asking to change it in the firmware.

Of course, you always have to pay attention to the volume control before switching on power amplifiers, amplifiers or active loudspeakers.

That's so obviously right, but still if i had to pay attention to any risk, I would look at the sky anytime before getting out of home because, you know, planes fall down, or i would never take a train or turn on my car... Life can turn into a psychiatric disease if you want to perfectly avoid risks.
That's why you rely on engineers to properly set those xxxxxng parameters. Specially when you pay their lunch.

 

[Snoopy]

I would never trust a DAC as volume control.


In my Headphone setup I use the DAC in fixed mode and adjust the volume through the headphone amp. (Remote control with mute button).

It's nice to use a simple setup with less devices or use software volume control but you never know when that thing resets it's settings and you fry your loudspeakers or headphones. Or get permanent hearing loss.

 

[amarsicola]

...

This is just one of the hazards of audio systems.

I disagree, having the default volume parameter at -0db in the firmware is a deliberate choice of someone. As with other examples you are making, we are in the digital era and a programmer can be wise or less so.
We pay the consequences.

 

[Roland68]

Well, i hope the manufacturer understands what damage happened to me. I wouldn't bet on him appearing in this discussion.

I disagree. The manufacturer makes huge claims of the preamp capability of this product. The "normal state" you describe is a parameter in a software, we are talking about digital volume control here. I am just asking to change it in the firmware.


That's so obviously right, but still if i had to pay attention to any risk, I would look at the sky anytime before getting out of home because, you know, planes fall down, or i would never take a train or turn on my car... Life can turn into a psychiatric disease if you want to perfectly avoid risks.
That's why you rely on engineers to properly set those xxxxxng parameters. Specially when you pay their lunch.

In principle, I do not agree to shifting one's own responsibility to others.
But if you come up with such examples, let's take a realistic one.
When you're at a green pedestrian light, or a zebra crossing, do you just walk across the street without looking left or right? You live in Italy, right? Much luck

 

[amarsicola]

In principle, I do not agree to shifting one's own responsibility to others.
But if you come up with such examples, let's take a realistic one.
When you're at a green pedestrian light, or a zebra crossing, do you just walk across the street without looking left or right? You live in Italy, right? Much luck

Your example is not perfectly fitting since you are putting random behaviours of humans on the table, while it is just a software story here, programmed to always make the same thing. It is more like this: when you cross the street because the pedestrian light is green, do you also check that at the same time the light for cars is red? Or you trust the traffic light engineer?
I trusted Topping's software when it claimed it could (always) remind the volume of the previous time.
Shame on me i trusted the wrong engineer

 

[Galliardist]

This reads like a brief power outage to me.

Some devices revert to default faster than others.

Having been caught out, I now check to see what happens in case the power goes down for a few seconds.

Really, a device should keep its settings in that circumstance- not all do.

 

[Snoopy]

This reads like a brief power outage to me.

Some devices revert to default faster than others.

Having been caught out, I now check to see what happens in case the power goes down for a few seconds.

Really, a device should keep its settings in that circumstance- not all do.

Automatic firmware updates might reset these things as well. That's why I'm super careful with the volume on my Cambridge setup (Cxn V2, cxa81)

 

[Rja4000]

Automatic firmware updates might reset these things as well. That's why I'm super careful with the volume on my Cambridge setup (Cxn V2, cxa81)

Who does automatic firmware update on HiFi gear ?
I don't.

Only my Bluesound system proposes updates on a regular base. But I still need to confirm it.
(Granted, on the PowerNode, that could end with volume too high. But they apparently do their job properly.)