Topping D70S fried my speakers...

[Roland68]

This statement is a little misleading (wrong!). Because before the start-up initializing (writing to more than a dozen registers) the chip didn't know that it has to do. Multichannel, ....... Nothing. There is no hard wiring!! Not a fact in modern DAC's anymore.

Anyhow, it is the responsibility of the developer to make sure the system is not harm outside components with an appropriate circuit, SW. This is possible.

For the user in some DAC (appliance) it can be default, but this is Firmware.

Here is an example for a chip:

I deliberately made this statement because, as stated in the data sheet, the DAC chip is started with its own default values.

If you skim the thread, you will find that most users do not understand the basic problem (starting point 0dB) and do not (want to) recognize the difference to other volume control options. That's why I break down the explanation in a simplified way.
These users are now simply made even more insecure.

It would be no problem to develop and program a secure solution with additional hardware. Maybe my requirements are exaggerated, but the user with the destroyed speakers may see it differently.

And since we're on the subject, I'll raise a nasty question for the manufacturers.
I've seen electronic switches in front of the outputs in some of these DACs for years. You could easily use these switches. to enable the outputs only after pressing a button with display of DAC mode and volume.
However, I do not know if these components are used in all DACs with this potential problem.

 

[Rottmannash]

As i proposed im my first post, a good manufacturer would find the bug and relase a new firmware, i'm not even claiming the money i spent to recover my speakers. I don't see why dsp volume control would be inherently flawed or why a customer should ask to activate it at his own risk as you propose.
The precautions in Bel Canto firmware are not rocket science.
Manufacturers should just put more effort in engineering, that's why we pay our money. Or at least pretend that they are working on it.
The Topping guy is very active in this forum, not on this thread.

I haven't seen a post by @JohnYang1997 in quite some time.

 

[BR52]

I deliberately made this statement because, as stated in the data sheet, the DAC chip is started with its own default values.

If you skim the thread, you will find that most users do not understand the basic problem (starting point 0dB) and do not (want to) recognize the difference to other volume control options. That's why I break down the explanation in a simplified way.
These users are now simply made even more insecure.

It would be no problem to develop and program a secure solution with additional hardware. Maybe my requirements are exaggerated, but the user with the destroyed speakers may see it differently.

And since we're on the subject, I'll raise a nasty question for the manufacturers.
I've seen electronic switches in front of the outputs in some of these DACs for years. You could easily use these switches. to enable the outputs only after pressing a button with display of DAC mode and volume.
However, I do not know if these components are used in all DACs with this potential problem.
View attachment 268765

Ok or not, the last word is yours. I will not make, "These users are now simply made even more insecure."
PS: If they are motivated to find a solution, they will find one, it's no rocket science. And a little more work, better structured SW and might be a little more HW.

 

[BR52]

I haven't seen a post by @JohnYang1997 in quite some time.

I posted this on Monday in an other Thread


Since last October, Topping is totally quiet, nothing heard from @JohnYang1997
anymore, no maintenance, on their web side.
They are still in business? Or sell the distributors only the rest.

Edit: They have now new DAC drivers on their Webside
so only missing @JohnYang1997

 

[Deleted member 58865]

I just make sure that the analog volume knob of my amplifier remains at 9'o clock so that even if the DAC volume is 0dB, nothing is too loud.

The DAC volume should be set at 0dB ideally for maximum signal-to-noise ratio. You should set the maximum volume at a volume knob attached to an amplifier or a preamp.

Then, you control software volume. You decrease DAC volume only when you can't decrease the volume of the volume knob any further.

Decreasing the volume at volume knob lowers noise floor. Decreasing the DAC volume doesn't lower noise floor.

1. Set the maximum volume at the volume knob attached to an amplifier or a preamp.
2. If you can't decrease the volume at the volume knob any further (without incurring channel imbalance), decrease DAC volume.
3. Save the DAC volume onto your operating system. Leave the volume knob at that place.
4. Mainpulate software volume. Don't touch the DAC volume or the volume knob.
5. If the software volume at 100% is not loud enough, then increase DAC volume.
6. If setting DAC volume to 0dB is not enough, increase the volume at the volume knob.
7. After listening to a particular sound source that needed fiddling with DAC volume or volume knob, restore volumes at the DAC and the volumb knob.

I leave the volume knob of my amplifier at 9'o clock and the DAC volume at -12dB. Below 9'o clock, I notice channel imbalance.

If you don't follow this procedure, you can fry your ears or your speakers. It also ensures that noise is minimized.

 

[Deleted member 58865]

If your DAC has a storage device that saves the volume, then the storage device will become corrupted over time as you write on it over and over.

Thus, to maximize longevity of your DAC, it shouldn't have a storage device that saves the volume level.

Just make sure your operating system restores the DAC volume when it boots up.

I use Topping D10s which exposes its volume setting to my operating system which restores the DAC volume when it boots up.

 

[12Many]

I don't know why but today when I switched on the Topping D70S the volume was at -0db. Of course, i never set the volume so high, and usually the dac reminds the volume of the previous time, but not today. Result: the amplifier fried the tweeter of one loudspeaker. I don't know what the Topping engineers were thinking when they designed this Dac without any option to set a maximum volume, or what was in their mind when they decided that when the Dac was switched on it could randomly start at -0db and not, say, at -90db.
Just a warning for the users/buyers and a pray for the manufacturer: please provide a decent firmware upgrade to solve the issue.

@amarsicola
Did yoiu see this thread?

Topping E70 randomly went to MAX volume..

Are there any quality DACs w/ analog pre amp included rather than digital? Volume control with a potentiometer will take place after the actual DAC in the output stage of the device. Therefore, the term preamplifier is not applicable.

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Haskil]

4 essais et 4 ratés.
- Avec le lecteur Denon SACD, le contrôle du volume est uniquement pour le casque, analogique bien sûr
- Idem pour le Revox pour casque et monitoring, aussi analogique
- Le Benchmark DAC3 HGC est un DAC avec un ampli casque intégré et un "vrai" préampli intégré, où le volume est bien sûr contrôlé en analogique avec un potentiomètre
- Avec le Nakamichi 1000, la sortie est contrôlée pour la surveillance et l'enregistrement, vous pouvez lire à ce sujet dans le manuel au point 15 des fonctions de contrôle. Il n'a jamais été conçu pour contrôler des amplis de puissance et comme c'était un appareil de niveau professionnel à l'époque, il est un peu ridicule de l'utiliser comme exemple (la plupart des appareils professionnels ont un contrôle de niveau de sortie).

Bravo !

 

[SD2KING]

I'm in the market for a well priced "good quality analog volume control unit". *edit: one that doesn't introduce any unnecessary noise, degrading my source and power amp SINAD at 113 dB). Remote control ability is only a 'nice to have', though more importantly, unless stupidly easy, I don't want to have to build it myself. *edit 2: with balanced in and output and either fully passive or with trigger in and out.

Anyone have any recommendations they can make? Want to avoid the "DAC switches to VOL 100"-situation, at all costs. I'm not the only one using the hifi system, as it's hooked up to the TV too.

Thanks

 

[GXAlan]

I'm in the market for a well priced "good quality analog volume control unit". *edit: one that doesn't introduce any unnecessary noise, degrading my source and power amp SINAD at 113 dB). Remote control ability is only a 'nice to have', though more importantly, unless stupidly easy, I don't want to have to build it myself.

Anyone have any recommendations they can make? Want to avoid the "DAC switches to VOL 100"-situation, at all costs. I'm not the only one using the hifi system, as it's hooked up to the TV too.

Thanks

Schiit Freya S or Freya+ or Freya N in passive mode.

Schiit Audio: Audio Products Made in USA

www.schiit.com

 

[gvl]

Anyone have any recommendations they can make?

Maybe inline passive attenuators.

 

[Bridges]

It must have been more than 30 of my posts saying that a dac plugged straight on an amp is an accident waiting to happen sooner or later.
There not such thing as a perfect firmware and all digital stuff "forget" their settings,rarely admittedly but they do,and it only takes one time to do the damage.
That's the reason I still rely on an analog electronic xover,that's the reason I never consider changing the nice analog Alps pot of my pre.
I couldn't care less about the less SINAD that causes as long as it is transparent enough for me and more importantly gives me security (let alone that I can play DSD without 3647634573 hacks).

I'm really sorry that something like this happened to you,my only advice is to get a pre with a nice physical knob that matches your power amp and make it the center of your system.
Peace of mind is priceless.

Good advice. I have had the same issue with an RME Dac pluged in strait into a power amp. Also with a chord Dac, I will now dig out an old preamp for use as a volume control.

 

[JeremyFife]

Schiit Freya S or Freya+ or Freya N in passive mode.

Schiit Audio: Audio Products Made in USA

www.schiit.com

Is this *really* the best / safest recommendation; to add in a dedicated (passive) volume control downstream of your DAC. Are all DACs inherently risky?

I'm not challenging this or disagreeing, I'm trying to understand the balance of risks and what a sensible set up looks like.

 

[SD2KING]

I'm in the market for a well priced "good quality analog volume control unit". *edit: one that doesn't introduce any unnecessary noise, degrading my source and power amp SINAD at 113 dB). Remote control ability is only a 'nice to have', though more importantly, unless stupidly easy, I don't want to have to build it myself. *edit 2: with balanced in and output.

Anyone have any recommendations they can make? Want to avoid the "DAC switches to VOL 100"-situation, at all costs. I'm not the only one using the hifi system, as it's hooked up to the TV too.

Thanks

A few options in this topic:

Tell me your best preamp

I bought Freya+ and TUNG-SOL. However always use passive mode. Decent choice, certainly. When I found had the Freya + I found Passive best for transparency & detail but Tube mode, (also with Tung Sol), gave pleasant coloration with certain types of music, e.g. Jazz. Today if I were looking...

audiosciencereview.com

And a European based option (no measurements), though:
https://www.audiophonics.fr/en/prea...ter-rca-to-xlr-xlr-to-rca-silver-p-12360.html

And some much appreciated, bringing your feet back down to earth, comments in the same:

Tell me your best preamp

I bought Freya+ and TUNG-SOL. However always use passive mode. Decent choice, certainly. When I found had the Freya + I found Passive best for transparency & detail but Tube mode, (also with Tung Sol), gave pleasant coloration with certain types of music, e.g. Jazz. Today if I were looking...

audiosciencereview.com

 

[RosalieTheDog]

Is this *really* the best / safest recommendation; to add in a dedicated (passive) volume control downstream of your DAC. Are all DACs inherently risky?

I'm not challenging this or disagreeing, I'm trying to understand the balance of risks and what a sensible set up looks like.

I have the same worry as SD2king, but the same question. For example: the miniDSP flex is a popular device recommended here. I haven't heard anyone recommend you need to put a preamp downstream, but I suppose that here too, volume control is "digital"?

SD2king, I think there is more value to be had in headphone amps with balanced in/out, that also have preamp function, posts here recommend L70, although there are those reliability issues with Topping's recent products https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...one-amps-as-preamp-whats-on-the-market.44605/

 

[levimax]

Is this *really* the best / safest recommendation; to add in a dedicated (passive) volume control downstream of your DAC. Are all DACs inherently risky?

I'm not challenging this or disagreeing, I'm trying to understand the balance of risks and what a sensible set up looks like.

All DAC's hooked up directly to an amplifier have an element of risk. How much depends on many factors.
Another solution would be to have some attenuation in the digital domain so that even if the DAC starts at "full volume" it will be loud but not damaging to the speakers. Then if you were in the mood to really blast some music after everything was up and running you could reduce this attenuation to reach higher volumes. Foobar2000 and other players have this capability. The advantage to this is that it is "free" and you don't have to "degrade" the signal going through another "box".

 

[GXAlan]

Is this *really* the best / safest recommendation; to add in a dedicated (passive) volume control downstream of your DAC. Are all DACs inherently risky?

I'm not challenging this or disagreeing, I'm trying to understand the balance of risks and what a sensible set up looks like.

I make no claims about best or safest. It’s my recommendation as a US-made product that hits the criteria set forth by the OP.

1. well priced
2. "good quality analog volume control unit"
3. doesn't introduce any unnecessary noise, degrading my source and power amp SINAD at 113 dB).
4. Remote control ability is only a 'nice to have'
5. I don't want to have to build it myself.

At $600 on closeout with known measurements by Amir.

 

[SD2KING]

All DAC's hooked up directly to an amplifier have an element of risk. How much depends on many factors.
Another solution would be to have some attenuation in the digital domain so that even if the DAC starts at "full volume" it will be loud but not damaging to the speakers. Then if you were in the mood to really blast some music after everything was up and running you could reduce this attenuation to reach higher volumes. Foobar2000 and other players have this capability. The advantage to this is that it is "free" and you don't have to "degrade" the signal going through another "box".

Not a bad idea! I’m evening reading that it has a look ahead function.
Unfortunately, it still has its limitations if I’m not missing something:
I cannot run my TV digital out, which runs through a DAC, through foobar for attenuation, can I? I need a “post-DAC” solution for attenuation.

 

[Roland68]

Good advice. I have had the same issue with an RME Dac pluged in strait into a power amp. Also with a chord Dac, I will now dig out an old preamp for use as a volume control.

What exactly is the problem you are having with your RME DAC?

 

[Bridges]

Dificult to explain: The volume control goes crasy, when I turn down the volume it works in reverse and actualy turns up the volume, there is no way to set the volume past or beneath a certain point, I often have to reset to factory, flash it and update thefirmware and drivers. I nearly fried my speakers several times at turn on. The owner's forum is useless and out of date. The setting are complicated even for profesional reviewers I have watched on youtube. Other then that It worked flawlessly out of the box when I bought it a year or so ego. At that time I considered it the best purchase ever in my hifi history, now, not so sure.