Nothing that will satisfy you since you refuse to engage with the cassette analogy
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Topping D70 Pro Sabre DAC Review
- Thread starter amirm
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Nothing that will satisfy you since you refuse to engage with the cassette analogy
The fact that cassette tapes (or vinyl, for that matter) have inferior dynamic range compared to 16 bit digital is irrelevant to the question of whether 24 bit digital in a reproduction application brings an additional audible difference, regardless of the genre.
Convincing to someone who hasn't read the argument. You win, it's alllll in my head
I’m not interested in “winning “. The name of this forum is Audio Science Review. If you’re not interested is exploring the science of audio you’re certainly in the wrong place. If you are interested, then welcome to the opportunity to examine your existing opinions in the light of new information that tests them.
Of course I am interested. Let's put it this way - I don't know enough to debate you. You've told me I'm wrong - I accept it, I'm wrong, I can't hear a difference, I just think I can
Here are some resources that discuss the issue. But think of it this way: A properly recorded 16 bit signal has 96 dB of dynamic range. Your room and heart beat are surely at least 20 dB. So you'd have to be playing music peaking at 116 dB SPL to extract the last shred of a 1 dB signal above the noise floor. Not only can't your ears/brain hear that difference, your speakers in any residential room (or headphones) can't play that accurately while that loud. And, regarding classic masters, anything ever recorded on analogue has a noise floor far too high to have that low a signal.
But this is all good news: You really can obtain 16 bit playback better than you can physically experience. The bad news: You can hear the difference between good and bad mastering.
24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!
It seems to me that there is a lot of misunderstanding regarding what bit depth is and how it works in digital audio. This misunderstanding exists not only in the consumer and audiophile worlds but also in some education establishments and even some professionals. This misunderstanding comes...
www.head-fi.org
16-bit... It really is enough!
Currently listening to the old 80s CD of Sting's Nothing Like the Sun. Fabulous recording and wonderful sounding CD. The CD has excellent dynamic range and even in the quietest parts, there's absolutely zero audible hiss. The basic point is that 16-bits provides massive dynamic range. Unless...
www.audiosciencereview.com
This post is something of a "6 months in" review of the D70 Pro Sabre + A70 Pro combination. There isn't a whole lot to say - they performed properly on day 1 and haven't faltered since. The sound from the D70 is excellent, non-fatiguing - there have never been any unwanted pops or buzzing etc. The A70 Pro is the same, very dynamic, very powerful, very accurate across a wide range of impedances - I've even driven loudspeakers from the 4 pin headphone XLR out. With very non-reactive 8 ohm nominal (5.4 ohm minimum) speakers (mostly resistive - sealed box, crossover and drivers tuned well), I expected to be able to get more than 2.5-3 volts peak before the over-current protection kicked in (Amir's 12 ohm test reached 10V RMS before protection), but after investigating the 6120A2 current output amps, this is, in fact, their limit at that impedance. Very good protection!
The critical part (coming back from the end here - wow, I didn't think it'd be this long! It's not a bunch of stuff, just a really good explanation): When looking at the displays, it does appear that they used a different batch of LCDs because one has a more yellow tint to it. The difference is small and you wouldn't notice unless you're looking for it. Also, when viewing off angle, one's phase change is different than the other. They're both just as visible, it's just... different. You only notice this in a dark room with display at at least medium brightness.
When new, I decided I was going to not use the displays at high brightness, even though that was my preference. Low is just too low for a lit room, so I settled on medium. Why? In the future, when the LEDs dim to the point that things are getting annoying, I can switch the brightness to high and enjoy that same amount of time again before I start becoming permanently annoyed. WELL...
Because I bought the D90 III Sabre shortly after the D70 Pro Sabre and have been using it primarily with the A70 Pro (the D70 Pro has moved to another place and gets maybe 5-10% the use...) and I've kept the A70 Pro on for probably every waking hour (and then some) since purchase, the A70's LCD is now noticeably dimmer than the D70's... Today they got sat one on top of the other and I noticed. I don't even remember which one was a little dimmer to start now! (70/30 the A70 was the slightly dimmer one).
Just checked my Prime history, it was April that I got the A70. Say it was the middle - we're in the middle of January now: 9 months. 16/24 * 9 = 6. Six months *30 days in a month * 24 hours in a day = 4320. Judging by how much dimmer the A70's screen is compared to the D70, if both devices continue on their current trajectory it'll be at around the 10-12k hour mark that A70's medium will meet the D70's "more than half way to low from medium" mark, the point at which I'd say medium is now not bright enough/now I have to switch to high brightness...
"Isn't there a way to turn the display off?"
No! Unfortunately there is just Low, Medium, High, and Auto. Auto is the same as medium for a minute or two, then it drops to low and makes the LCD go black, but the backlight is not switched off! The Auto is more for if you've got the thing in a rack beside a TV and you don't want to see the display out of the corner of your eye when you're watching something, than saving the backlight. A/V receivers with their vacuum displays are horrible for this too, their filaments stay powered up! Virtually 100% of them!!!
So I'd say, if you're someone who wants the display to be working and at a medium brightness, at about the 25-30k hour mark is when you're going to start being disappointed with this device. If you're careful like me and start at medium and then ramp up in the future... That's 3 years on 24/7, 6 years 12 hours a day, ~10 years 8 hours a day, ~20 years 4 hours a day. I've also looked into the MTBF of the power supplies inside, and they, if they're working the way I think they are (and they are), will last 50-60,000 hours powered on. In standby, the A70 will last maybe 150,000 hours, so maybe put it on a power bar you can turn off, along with other stuff you want to save that don't need to draw phantom power (like router and other networking hardware)
The critical part (coming back from the end here - wow, I didn't think it'd be this long! It's not a bunch of stuff, just a really good explanation): When looking at the displays, it does appear that they used a different batch of LCDs because one has a more yellow tint to it. The difference is small and you wouldn't notice unless you're looking for it. Also, when viewing off angle, one's phase change is different than the other. They're both just as visible, it's just... different. You only notice this in a dark room with display at at least medium brightness.
When new, I decided I was going to not use the displays at high brightness, even though that was my preference. Low is just too low for a lit room, so I settled on medium. Why? In the future, when the LEDs dim to the point that things are getting annoying, I can switch the brightness to high and enjoy that same amount of time again before I start becoming permanently annoyed. WELL...
Because I bought the D90 III Sabre shortly after the D70 Pro Sabre and have been using it primarily with the A70 Pro (the D70 Pro has moved to another place and gets maybe 5-10% the use...) and I've kept the A70 Pro on for probably every waking hour (and then some) since purchase, the A70's LCD is now noticeably dimmer than the D70's... Today they got sat one on top of the other and I noticed. I don't even remember which one was a little dimmer to start now! (70/30 the A70 was the slightly dimmer one).
Just checked my Prime history, it was April that I got the A70. Say it was the middle - we're in the middle of January now: 9 months. 16/24 * 9 = 6. Six months *30 days in a month * 24 hours in a day = 4320. Judging by how much dimmer the A70's screen is compared to the D70, if both devices continue on their current trajectory it'll be at around the 10-12k hour mark that A70's medium will meet the D70's "more than half way to low from medium" mark, the point at which I'd say medium is now not bright enough/now I have to switch to high brightness...
"Isn't there a way to turn the display off?"
No! Unfortunately there is just Low, Medium, High, and Auto. Auto is the same as medium for a minute or two, then it drops to low and makes the LCD go black, but the backlight is not switched off! The Auto is more for if you've got the thing in a rack beside a TV and you don't want to see the display out of the corner of your eye when you're watching something, than saving the backlight. A/V receivers with their vacuum displays are horrible for this too, their filaments stay powered up! Virtually 100% of them!!!
So I'd say, if you're someone who wants the display to be working and at a medium brightness, at about the 25-30k hour mark is when you're going to start being disappointed with this device. If you're careful like me and start at medium and then ramp up in the future... That's 3 years on 24/7, 6 years 12 hours a day, ~10 years 8 hours a day, ~20 years 4 hours a day. I've also looked into the MTBF of the power supplies inside, and they, if they're working the way I think they are (and they are), will last 50-60,000 hours powered on. In standby, the A70 will last maybe 150,000 hours, so maybe put it on a power bar you can turn off, along with other stuff you want to save that don't need to draw phantom power (like router and other networking hardware)
Here are some resources that discuss the issue. But think of it this way: A properly recorded 16 bit signal has 96 dB of dynamic range. Your room and heart beat are surely at least 20 dB. So you'd have to be playing music peaking at 116 dB SPL to extract the last shred of a 1 dB signal above the noise floor. Not only can't your ears/brain hear that difference, your speakers in any residential room (or headphones) can't play that accurately while that loud. And, regarding classic masters, anything ever recorded on analogue has a noise floor far too high to have that low a signal.
But this is all good news: You really can obtain 16 bit playback better than you can physically experience. The bad news: You can hear the difference between good and bad mastering.
24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!
It seems to me that there is a lot of misunderstanding regarding what bit depth is and how it works in digital audio. This misunderstanding exists not only in the consumer and audiophile worlds but also in some education establishments and even some professionals. This misunderstanding comes...16-bit... It really is enough!
Currently listening to the old 80s CD of Sting's Nothing Like the Sun. Fabulous recording and wonderful sounding CD. The CD has excellent dynamic range and even in the quietest parts, there's absolutely zero audible hiss. The basic point is that 16-bits provides massive dynamic range. Unless...
In a 16 bit recording, how many bits of resolution does an an instrument recorded at -60dB have?
Play a recording at that bit depth at 60dB. Can ya hear the fuzz? I can.
Classical music is not the most commonly listened to. I don't disagree with you that for most music 16 bit is adequate.
Here are some resources that discuss the issue. But think of it this way: A properly recorded 16 bit signal has 96 dB of dynamic range. Your room and heart beat are surely at least 20 dB. So you'd have to be playing music peaking at 116 dB SPL to extract the last shred of a 1 dB signal above the noise floor. Not only can't your ears/brain hear that difference, your speakers in any residential room (or headphones) can't play that accurately while that loud. And, regarding classic masters, anything ever recorded on analogue has a noise floor far too high to have that low a signal.
But this is all good news: You really can obtain 16 bit playback better than you can physically experience. The bad news: You can hear the difference between good and bad mastering.
24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!
It seems to me that there is a lot of misunderstanding regarding what bit depth is and how it works in digital audio. This misunderstanding exists not only in the consumer and audiophile worlds but also in some education establishments and even some professionals. This misunderstanding comes...16-bit... It really is enough!
Currently listening to the old 80s CD of Sting's Nothing Like the Sun. Fabulous recording and wonderful sounding CD. The CD has excellent dynamic range and even in the quietest parts, there's absolutely zero audible hiss. The basic point is that 16-bits provides massive dynamic range. Unless...
Some science:
And when you turn up the volume at the quieter parts like I (and many people) like to do...
Practically, 16 bit gives 90dB dynamic range. That's a 20dB shortfall before volume adjustments
Pop music, 16 bit is fine. Some classical needs 24, some prog as well (basically classical music with new instruments and rock bent)
Yes, 96 dB ABOVE BACKGROUND. You've confused maximum SPL and Dynamic Range. Most background is 30-40 dB. https://www.acousticsciences.com/asc-articles/auditorium-acoustics-104/ So classical at 108 dB SPL is about 78 dB above background. A full cymbal crash etc. heard in the audience could reach 125 dB. Unlikely you'll play that at home, but still, that about 95 dB on a recording. If you look at the full page you've linked to it states: "the human ear can accommodate a range of 120 dB or more though permanent hearing loss can occur with levels above 90 dB."
Thanks for the answer. Still, I don’t think you answered the second question. My question was if there’s a difference in sound when you use the Topping as a DAC vs DAC and preamp - no matter what is connected before it.
guyboisvert
Member
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- 24
Complete disagree and you don't seem to understand SPL & Dynamic range, background noise, hearing limitations, etc. Raising bit depth just lowers the noise floor and add dynamic range, nothing to do with "precision" or "it's not quite enough". And your cassette stuff is just hilarious: The distortion level is much higher, separation much lower, added noise, wow/flutter, etc etc etc. So of course difference is noticeable and a cassette is analog, not digital...
I won't lose my time explaining again, these posts say it all...
24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!
It seems to me that there is a lot of misunderstanding regarding what bit depth is and how it works in digital audio. This misunderstanding exists not only in the consumer and audiophile worlds but also in some education establishments and even some professionals. This misunderstanding comes...
www.head-fi.org
Audio Bit Depth: Everything you need to know
Bit depth is all about noise, so how does more data affect the quality of your recording? Let SoundGuys explain.
www.soundguys.com
High bitrate audio is overkill: CD quality is still great
Eager to shell out a bunch of cash for hi-res audio? Save your cash, says Chris. The sample rate and bit depth of CD quality audio can outresolve the limits of your hearing.
www.soundguys.com
The great audio myth: why you don’t need that 32-bit DAC
There is a growing trend of shoving a 32-bit DAC into flagship smartphones, but this is nothing more than a marketing gimmick. Here is why.
www.androidauthority.com
Monty did a very good job here:
D/A and A/D | Digital Show and Tell (Monty Montgomery @ xiph.org)
Complete disagree and you don't seem to understand SPL & Dynamic range, background noise, hearing limitations, etc. Raising bit depth just lowers the noise floor and add dynamic range, nothing to do with "precision" or "it's not quite enough". And your cassette stuff is just hilarious: The distortion level is much higher, separation much lower, added noise, wow/flutter, etc etc etc. So of course difference is noticeable and a cassette is analog, not digital...
I won't lose my time explaining again, these posts say it all...
24bit vs 16bit, the myth exploded!
It seems to me that there is a lot of misunderstanding regarding what bit depth is and how it works in digital audio. This misunderstanding exists not only in the consumer and audiophile worlds but also in some education establishments and even some professionals. This misunderstanding comes...Audio Bit Depth: Everything you need to know
Bit depth is all about noise, so how does more data affect the quality of your recording? Let SoundGuys explain.www.soundguys.comHigh bitrate audio is overkill: CD quality is still great
Eager to shell out a bunch of cash for hi-res audio? Save your cash, says Chris. The sample rate and bit depth of CD quality audio can outresolve the limits of your hearing.www.soundguys.comThe great audio myth: why you don’t need that 32-bit DAC
There is a growing trend of shoving a 32-bit DAC into flagship smartphones, but this is nothing more than a marketing gimmick. Here is why.www.androidauthority.com
Monty did a very good job here:
D/A and A/D | Digital Show and Tell (Monty Montgomery @ xiph.org)
You seem to misunderstand my position - I'll restate it: 16 bit audio is almost exclusively a limitation for recordings of classical music, especially more quietly recorded classical music, most notably when being played back louder than usual.
I've said 16 bit is fine for popular music
Is it your contention that someone playing brown or pink noise at 60dB with a 2kHz tone at 35dB, that the 2kHz tone would be... inaudible?
That's a very interesting question - and it should be a basic one. The effect is "masking".
First of all, yes, If the noise is 60 dB SPL it is impossible to hear pure tones at 35 dB. Here is a test you can do yourself. Play it through the best audio system you can and have bat ears, it won't make any difference. The sounds are NOT additive. There is a curve of audibility at various frequencies.
This is the essence of sound mixing, where, for example, one instrument (e.g. a bass drum) is reduced in level to "make room" to help a more dynamic instrument in a similar frequency range (electric bass guitar) stand out. Otherwise they mask each other and it all gets muddy.
There is a twist: Since mammal brains evolved to detect patterns there is an effect of white noise enhancing discrimination of pure tones, but the effect is very small and only relevant very close to the background noise. But once you sink below the background noise even a pure tone is masked.
guyboisvert
Member
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Disagree again. Human hearing has a practical limitation, 16 bits well recorded is already more than enough.
Read this again
Audio Bit Depth: Everything you need to know
Bit depth is all about noise, so how does more data affect the quality of your recording? Let SoundGuys explain.
www.soundguys.com
unpluggged
Major Contributor
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- Jan 5, 2023
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Topping E70 experiences this exact mode of failure.
It's recommended to use passive in-line attenuators to limit the maximum signal level at your amp's input.
ivanfraser
Member
I can't seem to find which filter Amir is using for the majority of the tests - min phase or linear fast roll off?
I'm surprised that min phase F1 is the default. It isn't very clear on the initial graphs of the various filters which one would be considered most accurate.
Anyone have any preferences here?
I'm surprised that min phase F1 is the default. It isn't very clear on the initial graphs of the various filters which one would be considered most accurate.
Anyone have any preferences here?
Last edited:
ivanfraser
Member
Update - so I missed the second graph on linear frequency response :0) I see the differences more clearly - and the rest of the tests don't relate to that anyway, so please forgive some of the clunkiness of my previous post.
Min phase and linear fast roll off are pretty equal, with the rest doing their rolling off early. Got it, and happy to know. For me, then, only these 2 filters are likely to get use in my kit - unless I get a really bad recording that needs managing with a slow roll off.
But, in my experience with min phase and fast linear, min phase is uncomfortable - reduces the openness and sometimes accentuates some of the higher frequencies (it did in my Audiolab kit anyway), so I never use it. Yet, here it is the default.
So, in real world scenario, listening over cans to a tv show set in a hospital: min phase sounds ok; flip to linear fast, you sense the depth of the room and the distances between sounds. In other words, it is more real and appears to be what the sound engineer must have recorded. There's a moment of 'ahh' I can relax, when going from min phase to linear fast, that sounds real.
So, if I'm right, the ideal filter should be - again - the linear fast, as is so usually oft repeated. And the sound stage with music, likewise restored.
So why would Topping make the default minimum phase? What factors influenced that decision? What do they think it brings to the table that is any advantage over the F3 linear fast?
I was notified there was a dedicated D70 Pro Sabre thread by another user - would anyone be able to help me set this up correctly?
______________
Post from me from another thread
Hello everyone,
After reading and following this topic for a while, without an account, I'd decided to purchase the topping a70 pro + d70 pro sabre stack, along with a hifiman arya stealth. I've tried nearly everything, started a topic on another forum, and am unable to get sound out of the dac as the playback device. Everything else seems to work, device is recognized, drivers are installed, firmware is up to date, etc.: https://forums.whathifi.com/threads...rking-through-my-dac-need-some-advice.135190/
Would anyone happen to know what more troubleshooting I could do to get sound to work everywhere? I had only been able to achieve sound through Foobar2000, playing a downloaded .mp3 file through ASIO4ALL. No sound outside of Foobar2000.
I don't know if this topic is the right place, and I apologize if it isn't. I'm (very) new in the audio/hifi world. Any help is very much appreciated, my messages are open!
______________
Post from me from another thread
Hello everyone,
After reading and following this topic for a while, without an account, I'd decided to purchase the topping a70 pro + d70 pro sabre stack, along with a hifiman arya stealth. I've tried nearly everything, started a topic on another forum, and am unable to get sound out of the dac as the playback device. Everything else seems to work, device is recognized, drivers are installed, firmware is up to date, etc.: https://forums.whathifi.com/threads...rking-through-my-dac-need-some-advice.135190/
Would anyone happen to know what more troubleshooting I could do to get sound to work everywhere? I had only been able to achieve sound through Foobar2000, playing a downloaded .mp3 file through ASIO4ALL. No sound outside of Foobar2000.
I don't know if this topic is the right place, and I apologize if it isn't. I'm (very) new in the audio/hifi world. Any help is very much appreciated, my messages are open!
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