Topping D10s USB DAC and Bridge Review

[martijn86]

Is it a general rule that upstream devices should have SINAD 10 dB greater than an amplifier?
More details would be appreciated (or place on the forum where I can read more about that )

There's been talk of the usefulness of DAC resolution if amplifiers don't get that high but I'm curious to see how upstream and downstream devices interact with each other in resolving detail. I think the most significant thing I took away from the previous discussion is that DAC resolution and dynamic range are not comparable to amplifier noise floors. The details are best left to those who know what they are talking about but it would be cool to see a test that compares a brilliant DAC into a terrible amplifier vs. a terrible DAC into a brilliant amplifier. At what point is the output of the best amplifier in the world precisely the same between DAC's? Does that point exists? I'm keen to learn about that.

I personally haven't heard of the 10dB better rule. My approach has always been that, every flaw a device produces gets processed and amplified down the chain and thus getting the first analog signal from the DAC to be as perfect as it can be, is beneficial down the entire chain. All noise, jitter, ultrasonics will go through your processor, pre-amplifier and power amplifier. All of these components will deal with them in their own way possibly causing ultrasonic problems to affect audible ranges. But that just keeps me poor and looking for perfection and I could easily be wrong about my approach.

 

[PeteL]

https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-zero-w/ $10 is the retail price. Even if a manufacturer has to pay that much (they shouldn't) and additional costs were another $10 (total input cost $20) and they made a 50% margin (too high) and so did the retailer (too high) that adds $80 to the retail price of the DAC+Wifi

Technical Specifications

The Raspberry Pi Zero W extends the Pi Zero family. Launched at the end of February 2017, the Pi Zero W has all the functionality of the original Pi Zero, but comes with with added connectivity, consisting of:

• 802.11 b/g/n wireless LAN
• Bluetooth 4.1
• Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE)

Like the Pi Zero, it also has:

• 1GHz, single-core CPU
• 512MB RAM
• Mini HDMI and USB On-The-Go ports
• Micro USB power
• HAT-compatible 40-pin header
• Composite video and reset headers
• CSI camera connector

Thanks for the correction, so where do you connect an actual antenna on this? Does anybody have tried it for High bandwith wifi audio streaming? the fact that you have wifi connectivity don't mean it will work for audio, tcp packets can be resent, so anything will work for browsing the web or transfering files, audio streaming is a different ball game (not saying it won't work, just asking if it does) Is there even a TRACE antenna (which would only work in a plastic enclosure) or you need to add a module? pardon my ignorance. Oh, By the way ZERO manufacturers would ever break even with a 50% markup on BOM... ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE, even if selling direct.

 

[MediumRare]

Thanks for the correction, so where do you connect an actual antenna on this? Does anybody have tried it for High bandwith wifi audio streaming? the fact that you have wifi connectivity don't mean it will work for audio, tcp packets can be resent, so anything will work for browsing the web or transfering files, audio streaming is a different ball game (not saying it won't work, just asking if it does) Is there even a TRACE antenna (which would only work in a plastic enclosure) or you need to add a module? pardon my ignorance. Oh, By the way ZERO manufacturers would ever break even with a 50% markup on BOM... ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE, even if selling direct.

Margin, not Markup. There is a difference:

1 + 1 = 2 is a 100% Markup and 50% Margin
1 + 0.5 = 1.5 is a 50% Markup and 33.3% Margin
The difference in profit is 100%

Are you in business?

 

[ExUnoPlura]

I've had mixed experiences with functionality of Topping DACs, especially via Roon. The main issue appears to be the USB HID implementation. For my D90 MQA and D50s, I can control volume via USB using Device Control when connected to a Mac USB out, but not when connected to Raspberry Pi running RopieeeXL or when in Exclusive Mode to preserve transport of DSDs/MQAs. Sound quality is great, but the confusing functionality of volume control remains a sore spot. I've contacted Topping and they indicate they are investigating. There are also some popping noises during switching resolution and formats when in Exclusive Mode or via Linux ALSA that is irritating.

 

[PeteL]

Margin, not Markup. There is a difference:

1 + 1 = 2 is a 100% Markup and 50% Margin
1 + 0.5 = 1.5 is a 50% Markup and 33.3% Margin
The difference in profit is 100%

Are you in business?

I was yes, yes I meant margin sorry, wrote too fast, typically if your BOM cost is higher of 1/6th of the retail cost, you are in deep trouble. Even this is highly optimistic. I know, I did try to break that rule to offer prices that would try to compete with asian manufacturing, you make this mistake only once.

 

[MediumRare]

I was yes, yes I meant margin sorry, wrote too fast, typically if your BOM cost is higher of 1/6th of the retail cost, you are in deep trouble. Even this is highly optimistic. I know, I did try to break that rule to offer prices that would try to compete with asian manufacturing, you make this mistake only once.

Remember I said +$10 parts BOM = +$80 retail, that's 8 to 1. Better than your 6 to 1.

 

[Oklei]

What do you mean by good USB?

I think what he's referring to is that the older Pies have a shared Ethernet / USB Bus. This can lead to usb dropouts during heavy ethernet usage if you're playing High-res audio files via USB.

 

[PeteL]

Remember I said +$10 parts BOM = +$80 retail, that's 8 to 1. Better than your 6 to 1.

OK, If you are positive that there is nothing more to add and that is fully functional , I can't argue. Again I don't see an antenna connector, but if you say it work as is for audio streaming, I believe you, It's not something I have experience with, You probably know better than me on using this as an audio streamer, never tried.

 

[azzy_mazzy]

should i use schiit Heresy or JDS Labs Atom with those? also going to use them as preamp for my active speakers.

 

[Illtrick]

OK, If you are positive that there is nothing more to add and that is fully functional , I can't argue. Again I don't see an antenna connector, but if you say it work as is for audio streaming, I believe you, It's not something I have experience with, You probably know better than me on using this as an audio streamer, never tried.

We're fully off topic here but this is most legit sub $200 wifi streamer / dac (mind you no inputs) I've seen. Personally I'm still sticking with Pi + Volumio +E30 but the Audio Engine is what I recommend to all my non-diy friends.

https://audioengineusa.com/shop/adapters/b-fi-multiroom-music-streamer/

 

[Ucftechguru]

I have a Denon x3300w and recently bought a Marantz SR6014. Both score pretty bad in Amir’s reviewS when it comes to SINAD and distortion. Would a DAC like this help me? I don’t see how I could export sound from my Denon to this and back to my Denon. I only see the HDMI out and Zone 2 RCA outputs on the Denon and Marantz. Do people ever do that with DACs like this?

 

[PeteL]

We're fully off topic here but this is most legit sub $200 wifi streamer / dac (mind you no inputs) I've seen. Personally I'm still sticking with Pi + Volumio +E30 but the Audio Engine is what I recommend to all my non-diy friends.

https://audioengineusa.com/shop/adapters/b-fi-multiroom-music-streamer/

It is a very good price, but, of course when I started putting in perspective the actual cost of adding WIFI to a D10, I was not refering to a 16 bits 44.1 dac. Yes this is quite cheap, and probably sound good, but not competitive with the kind of measurments this thread is about.Using this to get what @MediumRare was more refering to, the way I understand it, You would Stream with this product to a DAC with am extra Toslink input, a e30 for exemple. That would amount to 320$ which to me is a extremely good price to have a great DAC with WIFI capability. Yeah I heard the argument about PI and Arduino, I maintain that you would not find a commercial product that does all that for less than 200$ as mentioned. I'd be happy to be proved wrong, if such a thing exist.

 

[azzy_mazzy]

I have a Denon x3300w and recently bought a Marantz SR6014. Both score pretty bad in Amir’s reviewS when it comes to SINAD and distortion. Would a DAC like this help me? I don’t see how I could export sound from my Denon to this and back to my Denon. I only see the HDMI out and Zone 2 RCA outputs on the Denon and Marantz. Do people ever do that with DACs like this?

don't worry about it. you can use this for 2.0 setup but not for surround sound, you use a pc as your player and connect it to the D10s and then from the D10s to a power amp, but i don't think it that important for surround sound.

 

[Ucftechguru]

don't worry about it. you can use this for 2.0 setup but not for surround sound, you use a pc as your player and connect it to the D10s and then from the D10s to a power amp, but i don't think it that important for surround sound.

Thanks! I am fine with just using it for stereo sound. I don’t have a PC near my receiver though. I was wondering if I could use the HEOS (to play Tidal and Amazon Ultra HD files) built-into the Marantz, export the sound somehow to a high-performing DAC like this D10 and then back to the Marantz to use its internal amps or out to an external
amp I have, a Sunfire Grand Cinema then out to my home theater speakers. Is this a way people use DACs or should I set it up a different way? Or should I look for a different DAC that can wirelessly stream Tidal and Amazon UltraHD tracks?

 

[HooStat]

Sorry if my question is a tired one, but can the DAC volume be controlled with the UAC driver?

Has this been answered yet?

 

[azzy_mazzy]

Thanks! I am fine with just using it for stereo sound. I don’t have a PC near my receiver though. I was wondering if I could use the HEOS (to play Tidal and Amazon Ultra HD files) built-into the Marantz, export the sound somehow to a high-performing DAC like this D10 and then back to the Marantz to use its internal amps or out to an external
amp I have, a Sunfire Grand Cinema then out to my home theater speakers. Is this a way people use DACs or should I set it up a different way? Or should I look for a different DAC that can wirelessly stream Tidal and Amazon UltraHD tracks?

im afraid you have to get a a streaming device.

 

[JohnYang1997]

Sorry if my question is a tired one, but can the DAC volume be controlled with the UAC driver?

The volume can be controlled in the driver. Idk about UAC driver but it's in the driver control panel.

 

[kukocz]

We're fully off topic here but this is most legit sub $200 wifi streamer / dac (mind you no inputs) I've seen. Personally I'm still sticking with Pi + Volumio +E30 but the Audio Engine is what I recommend to all my non-diy friends.

https://audioengineusa.com/shop/adapters/b-fi-multiroom-music-streamer/

It's sharing the same "LinkPlay" technology as AudioCast M5. See my comment HERE.

 

[armani006]

Topping, please make the same DAC but with MQA support !! Begging you !
or maybe someone knows any DAC with MQA support but without any filters or impact of internal D/S chip ?

 

[audio_tony]

Topping, please make the same DAC but with MQA support !!

Why? MQA is just snake oil.