Topping D10s Owner Measurements/Quick Review

[pma]

Topping D10s USB DAC

I bought this little DAC from Audiophonics France

TOPPING D10S DAC USB 32bit/384kHz DSD 256 XMOS U208 ES9038Q2M Black - Audiophonics

Revisited version of the D10 from Topping, the D10s is an office DAC with impressive capabilities in its price range. This second version includes an ESS ES9038Q2M 32bit high-fidelity decoding chip as well as an XMOS U208 USB interface with a customized Thesycon driver to cover most of the high...

www.audiophonics.fr

It has arrived after 6 days from purchase. I made some measurements :

Output Noise

Noise is below 2uVrms measured at 22Hz-22kHz unweighted, a little bit better than by manufacturer specs! S/N is better than 120dB then. Please note that I use @22kHz bandwidth unweighted, which is more strict than A-weight used by Topping. So the noise parameters are better than by manufactirer specs! With A-weight, I measured 1.44uVrms noise.
Note: my noise measurement limit is 0.7uVrms (22Hz-22kHz unweighted)

THD harmonic distortion
View attachment 168171
Measured below 0.0001% at 0.66Vrms/1khz. H2 is about 127dB below fundamental 1kHz.

CCIF intermodulation distortion 19+20kHz

Measured at 0.495Vrms with 19+20kHz twin tone. Please note absence of the 1kHz differential H2 distortion product!

All the above shown results are excellent.


Sound

I usually do not speak much about sound but now I will. The sound is very good, accurate, with perfect resolution, tight bass, transparent in midrange and clean in highs. My best digital source so far. And unforgiving, nothing hiding.

Conclusion

I am very happy with this small DAC. Its parameters and sound are excellent regardless the price level, it can compete with any high-priced product.

---------------------------

New measurement of D10s at 1kHz/0dBFS, measured with E1DA Cosmos ADC

 

[pma]

We can also see nice sharp filter with very good attenuation below Fs/2 (22.05kHz).

 

[captainbeefheart]

This confirms what I am hearing, which is digital perfection.

I purchased mine open box for $79 and it was for the most part brand new, I don't think it was ever even plugged in.

I don't know why this doesn't get more love from people. Is it the cheap price tag that scares people away? I have seen DAC's for $500 that this will blow out of the water. I would have thought this would be a much more popular component for high performance at an "entry level" price. Actually probably lower than entry level price. My raspberry pi dac cost more than this and I didn't have to put the D10s together!!!

 

[pma]

I don't know why this doesn't get more love from people.

I think the key is who is a promoter .

I have had absolutely no issues with the product so far. It also works well with Olimex USB-ISO USB isolator and it is a feature that I need, because I use it for measurements as well and USB isolator breaks the groundloop then. I also use it to send the audio output via 12 m shielded cable to another room, again using USB-ISO, and there is absolutely no hum or buzz neither audible, nor measurable. It is often about proper use of the audio component.

 

[Dunring]

I've had a couple of them, with the Drop THX 789 it's great with the sharp filter for music. Also with that amp it's a hassle to use a balanced DAC in high gain (-7db reduction to avoid internal clipping when running balanced to bring it down to 2.1v). The SMSL SP200 is on the D10b right now, but I have the 789 also and it's higher fun factor for music with the d10s (drum beats feel more distinct, bass/mids have more weight, but could be the filter that's the difference, for gaming the D10b is better which aligns with 48khz games run in, on the D10s the treble sounds a little sharp when gaming, but more than makes up for it sounding so on point for music.
I think it's the price that makes people think it couldn't be as good as it is. I have the VE Monk ear buds for $10 on Amazon and nobody believes they could be as nice as they are until I send them a pair, then I get the phone call that they're happy with them...

 

[captainbeefheart]

I think it's the price that makes people think it couldn't be as good as it is.

I am more and more leaning towards this.

I know far too many people that truly equate price to performance, to a certain extent yes cheap gear is just that but you easily reach a point of diminished returns. I have asked the question "what do you think is the lowest you need to spend for a DAC" and "what did you spend on yours?" to lots of my audio correspondents and the average answer was $500 for minimum and most have spent over that being around $1000-$2000.

The only thing I am concerned with is how long will it last? If I can get 5 years out of it that's to me worth the price but being an engineer I don't see any reason why it won't last a lot longer, to me it looks well designed but engineering DAC's isn't my area of expertise. I know the basics and have read many datasheets including the application sections that show suggested power up sequence, operating conditions, circuit and layout etc.. That way there I can at least spot decent designs vs designs that cut corners and don't adhere to the datasheet recommended circuit and operating conditions.

Some of the expensive DAC's have some flaws shown by the test results, you don't always get what you pay for. In this case with the D10s I got it on a whim from hearing such good things about their other products like the Class D amps and while my test equipment isn't as precise as AP used here it did show it performed well. This review confirmed my tests and what I am hearing, actually this test showed better results than what's specified by the manufacturer which shows me Topping is an honest company that conservatively rates their equipment instead of completely lying like the Crimson 275 tube amplifier that way over bloated the specs. Even if I paid full list price for mine I'd be very happy but the fact I got it for 40% off the list price it was an even better deal

I highly recommend this product to anyone, not just people that want a budget DAC but anyone that doesn't need anything better than 32bit/384kHz DSD256.

 

[Shadrach]

Sounds pretty good to me. I doubt if I could even tell if it didn't match the specifications.
I have enough trouble telling one brand from another.
I looked at the specifications, then at the price, I couldn't see anything that didn't indicate this would perform any worse than any other DAC at a level I would hear.
So I bought one. Silly not to at the price if one has even the slightest hint of audio nervosa.
Plays nicely with the JDS Labs Atom and makes the Genlecs sound wonderful.

 

[Dunring]

I highly recommend this product to anyone, not just people that want a budget DAC but anyone that doesn't need anything better than 32bit/384kHz DSD256.

One fun thing is do a Google search, then options to set the date range, and see what DAC reviews from 5-10 years ago selling for a few thousand dollars, and the SINAD is around what the $100 DAC's go for now. I remember when a good laptop was $5,000 and now $300 gets a decent one. I got the SMSL SP200 for $150 used, and the Topping D10b $140 new, and no plans to upgrade. The DT990 600ohm sound so good with 2 plies of toilet paper on the driver under the foam to control the treble spike. All in for under $425, I and don't feel bad when someone talks about uber expensive setup.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

In everybody's opinion(s), how does the Topping d10s compare to the DX3 pro+ or the MX5?

 

[captainbeefheart]

In everybody's opinion(s), how does the Topping d10s compare to the DX3 pro+ or the MX5?

I have no direct experience with the two others but the differences just looking at them is the DX3 pro+ is also a headphone amplifier and has Bluetooth capabilities. The MX5 has a built in Class D power amplifier to drive loudspeakers, 70 watts each channel L + R. The MX5 also has Bluetooth capabilities. The D10s doesn't have a volume control knob so it's doesn't get labeled a "preamp" like the DX3.

Push all the features aside and just look at the DAC, they all would probably sound the same. Choosing between the three comes down to what features do you need? All you have are passive loudspeakers then the MX5 has a Class D power amplifier to drive them. If you already have a power amplifier or active speakers but don't have a dedicated headphone amp and you want one then the DX3 is a good choice, also it has Bluetooth if that's important. If your like me and like everything modular, I have a preferred dedicated headphone amp, I have preferred power amps I want to drive my loudspeakers, I don't care about Bluetooth, all I want is a USB DAC and that's it, the D10 is all that I need.

One thing that's going to be interesting is that the D10 actually has sockets for the opamps for experimenting. I have a nice collection of high quality opamps so maybe I can do some research and send Amir it for testing, I don't think he has done a D10s yet. I'll need to research what opamps they are using and then compare to ones I have. I can also get a peak at the circuit their used in to better help me narrow down my choices.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

I have no direct experience with the two others but the differences just looking at them is the DX3 pro+ is also a headphone amplifier and has Bluetooth capabilities. The MX5 has a built in Class D power amplifier to drive loudspeakers, 70 watts each channel L + R. The MX5 also has Bluetooth capabilities. The D10s doesn't have a volume control knob so it's doesn't get labeled a "preamp" like the DX3.

Push all the features aside and just look at the DAC, they all would probably sound the same. Choosing between the three comes down to what features do you need? All you have are passive loudspeakers then the MX5 has a Class D power amplifier to drive them. If you already have a power amplifier or active speakers but don't have a dedicated headphone amp and you want one then the DX3 is a good choice, also it has Bluetooth if that's important. If your like me and like everything modular, I have a preferred dedicated headphone amp, I have preferred power amps I want to drive my loudspeakers, I don't care about Bluetooth, all I want is a USB DAC and that's it, the D10 is all that I need.

One thing that's going to be interesting is that the D10 actually has sockets for the opamps for experimenting. I have a nice collection of high quality opamps so maybe I can do some research and send Amir it for testing, I don't think he has done a D10s yet. I'll need to research what opamps they are using and then compare to ones I have. I can also get a peak at the circuit their used in to better help me narrow down my choices.

Thank you for this succulent answer - in the meantime I have done my own research and what you've written is in complete resonance with what I was thinking, so i thank you for confirming.

I already have a FiiO Btr5 for bluetooth capability and listening to headphones (HD560S via 2.5 mm balanced output), so i'd think that the D10S would be the most appropriate choice for me, since i can plug it into a Raspberry Pi running Volumio via USB and get a signal from the RCA L+R to my current stereo amp's (Fosi BT20A-S) inputs.

I plan to purchase a yamaha A-S301 at some point, and this would work perfectly with that, either through the D10S' DAC or through the toslink out connection to the amps toslink input.

This seems like a really good product in my eyes for the reason that I think USB is the most 'handy' way of connecting my audio source(s) up (i.e. my macbook which has apple music lossless, or my raspbpi streamers) and getting a nice analog output, or a optical signal for amps.

 

[NewbieAudiophileExpert]

I have no direct experience with the two others but the differences just looking at them is the DX3 pro+ is also a headphone amplifier and has Bluetooth capabilities. The MX5 has a built in Class D power amplifier to drive loudspeakers, 70 watts each channel L + R. The MX5 also has Bluetooth capabilities. The D10s doesn't have a volume control knob so it's doesn't get labeled a "preamp" like the DX3.

Push all the features aside and just look at the DAC, they all would probably sound the same. Choosing between the three comes down to what features do you need? All you have are passive loudspeakers then the MX5 has a Class D power amplifier to drive them. If you already have a power amplifier or active speakers but don't have a dedicated headphone amp and you want one then the DX3 is a good choice, also it has Bluetooth if that's important. If your like me and like everything modular, I have a preferred dedicated headphone amp, I have preferred power amps I want to drive my loudspeakers, I don't care about Bluetooth, all I want is a USB DAC and that's it, the D10 is all that I need.

One thing that's going to be interesting is that the D10 actually has sockets for the opamps for experimenting. I have a nice collection of high quality opamps so maybe I can do some research and send Amir it for testing, I don't think he has done a D10s yet. I'll need to research what opamps they are using and then compare to ones I have. I can also get a peak at the circuit their used in to better help me narrow down my choices.

Also, with regard to your comments regarding OP amps, this is unchartered territory for me, so I will need to get back to you at a later point regarding that when i have educated my self further on the functionally and behaviour of op amps.

 

[captainbeefheart]

Also, with regard to your comments regarding OP amps, this is unchartered territory for me, so I will need to get back to you at a later point regarding that when i have educated my self further on the functionally and behaviour of op amps.

Opamps come in many different topologies each with their own unique pros and cons, there are always tradeoffs in engineering. Another thing to think about is the manufacturer needs to think of these tradeoffs, they want good performance obviously but they also are in a very competitive market where they want to make their product as affordable as possible but still perform well. Obviously the D10 performs very well regardless of the price, but I doubt they used $12 opamps because it would cost too much for the production. There are some very high performance opamps out there so it will be fun to see if any of these top shelf opamps can further improve performance of the device.

I haven't opened up the unit yet to check out the situation. When I have the time to do so I'll find out which part of the circuits have the sockets to swap opamps. There are most opamps to do the conversion at the output of the DAC chips from a current output to a voltage, you'll see it written as I/V conversion opamps. This is an important part of the device. Then there is the audio output sections including output buffers which are all going to be opamps arranged as gain devices or unity gain buffer devices. So depending on the job the opamp is doing is how I'll start to make a list of upgrades along with looking at which opamps they selected for these application will also help me get a better idea of upgrade parts.

For example a very common audio opamp is NE5532/NE5534 and TL072, I see so many of these in commercial equipment because they work well and are inexpensive. For example a NE5532 costs only $.72 and the TL072 is about $.95 each. This is individual prices so a manufacturer will get an even cheaper price when buying thousands of them. Compare that to say a LT1358 that is $10.75 each or a burr brown OPA2134 $6.15, that's a big difference in price and a manufacturer is going chose one they can get for $.50 and does a good enough job. Us as the end user can make the decision to upgrade the less expensive opamps with better ones that may gain us some performance improvement.

Here is an older thread but it still has a lot of useful information regarding the selection of opamp for the I/V conversion at the output of the DAC chip.

Best opamp for I/V conversion? (DAC)

Hi, I am quite sure this has been discussed before but I did not find it using the search function. I am going to bulid a DAC using CS8420, DF1704/06 and 2xPCM1704; followed by opamp for I/V conversion, passive HF filter and another opamp as output buffer. The output buffer will be Analog...

www.diyaudio.com

 

[Ro808]

Keep it simple.
Swap the LME47920NA with an OPA 1656, then all op amps are identical (I/V Conversion and Output Buffer) and of the highest quality.
Moreover, the 1656 is the recommended substitute by JohnYang1997.
The OPA 1656 must of course be soldered to a SOIC - DIP adapter.

Fwiw, subjectively, the D10S seems to sound a bit more natural, less coarse, after the swap. The somewhat clinical signature that some D10S owners have reported and which may contribute to listening fatigue is gone.

 

[captainbeefheart]

Keep it simple.
Swap the LME47920NA with an OPA 1656, then all op amps are identical (I/V Conversion and Output Buffer) and of the highest quality. Moreover, the 1656 is the recommended substitute by JohnYang1997.
The OPA 1656 must of course be soldered to a SOIC - DIP adapter.

I am curious if the fatigue is from too much cable capacitance. I am not 100% positive until I get inside the DAC but I believe the LME47920NA is the output buffer. If that's the case then I may try an LT1358 first as a swap because it's unity gain stable driving any capacitive load.

If it were a typical gain stage the LME47920NA would be the better choice but even it's datasheet does not state buffer applications, this may be what the issue with the remarks about fatigue. The LT1358 will stay stable and drive any capacitance in cables without any stability concerns. This is why I have said several times that I'd like to see Amir add stability testing to his arsenal of tests, I think it will show differences in devices we aren't seeing with just SINAD scores.

Same with the OPA1656, it's a great amplifier; i.e. a gain stage but again buffer application is not listed in the datasheet. For a buffer we want an opamp with unconditional stability with unity gain mode into any capacitive load which the LT1358 does very well.

https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/135859fb.pdf

 

[Ro808]

I am not 100% positive until I get inside the DAC but I believe the LME47920NA is the output buffer. If that's the case then I may try an LT1358 first as a swap because it's unity gain stable driving any capacitive load.

Yes, it's the output buffer.

Assuming you know what you're doing and what to aim for, then the LT (family) seems worth experimenting with.
"LT1355, LT1358, LT1361, LT1364 - a family of op amps with high (LT1355 and LT1358) and very high (LT1361 and LT1364) slew rates (from 12 MHz and 400 V/µs to 70 MHz and 1000 V/µs). Good noise reduction, increased stability under capacitive load, distortion of the order of 0.0007% up to 2 kHz."

 

[KSTR]

I am curious if the fatigue is from too much cable capacitance. I am not 100% positive until I get inside the DAC but I believe the LME47920NA is the output buffer. If that's the case then I may try an LT1358 first as a swap because it's unity gain stable driving any capacitive load

Did you notice that the D10s has 100Ohms breakout series resistors? Capacitive loading from any normal cable won't be an issue here, that is, OpAmp rolling is safe in this regard at least.
The feedback network of that subtractor lowpass filter is low impedance and will be the dominant load for the OpAmp.

 

[captainbeefheart]

Did you notice that the D10s has 100Ohms breakout series resistors? Capacitive loading from any normal cable won't be an issue here, that is, OpAmp rolling is safe in this regard at least.
The feedback network of that subtractor lowpass filter is low impedance and will be the dominant load for the OpAmp.

Nope I haven't even opened it up so I haven't seen the build out resistor value. But the D10 may have a 100 ohm resistor but the D10s states the output impedance is 20 ohms vs the 100 ohm D10. So my version cannot have a 100 ohm series resistor at the output. Hopefully they put whatever value resistor as close to the pin as possible, stray capacitance can be an issue with some opamps.

100 ohms is a safer value to decouple the output capacitive loading, 20 ohms may or may not be enough but with a more stable opamp for the buffer I can lower the output resistor even further or even try and just bypass it.

 

[captainbeefheart]

Yes, it's the output buffer.

Assuming you know what you're doing and what to aim for, then the LT (family) seems worth experimenting with.
"LT1355, LT1358, LT1361, LT1364 - a family of op amps with high (LT1355 and LT1358) and very high (LT1361 and LT1364) slew rates (from 12 MHz and 400 V/µs to 70 MHz and 1000 V/µs). Good noise reduction, increased stability under capacitive load, distortion of the order of 0.0007% up to 2 kHz."

I'd like to think I know what I'm doing and ya I too thought the LT1358 or similar series opamps would be a good substitute to start with.

 

[KSTR]

Well, Toppings states 100Ohms for the D10s:

TOPPING D10S ES9038Q2M Digital to Analog Convertor (DAC)

Description: TOPPING D10S is a USB DAC with Line out, Optical and Coaxial output. It use XMOS(XU208) + ES9018K2M + OPA2134 and customized Thesycon driver(Windows) to support maximum PCM384kHz/32bit and DSD256(Native) decode and display the format & sampling rate by indicator. D10S also provide...

shenzhenaudio.com

D10B (which I personally own) output impedance is lower with 88Ohms (diffentiall, so 44Ohms per output) -- a passive T-filter with 22R resistors actually.