Topping D10 Balanced Review (USB DAC)

[Deleted member 78499]

So yes use the passive between the D10 and receiver.

Replay gain "normalizes" level of playback for different songs. For example you have one track that is very loud and you have to turn down volume. You have a second track that is very soft and you have raise volume. You have other tracks in between those two extremes. Replay gain looks at the average level prior to playing a track and adjusts it. This way you can set volume and change it very little if any with everything being matched to play back at a similar loudness. So if you want purity of the signal this is not for you. For casual listening it can be nice to use.

The passive preamp arrived, download topping d10 driver and put Tidal + MMonkey in exclusive mode. Now number on topping, change along the music and they play without using windows mixer, great machine the topping. It was on the shelf and i was trying to discard it, but now! wow, would not want anything else!

many thanks to this thread, very helpfull, you put sunshine in my music again!

best regards and best of luck all!
ps Bonus, my NOS tube arrived today! Also...!

 

[Leejb1970]

I’m considering whether to upgrade my D10B for a different DDC. One consideration is the extra inputs for my other equipment. The other is this. Is it possible to colour the sound if the Xmos driver is not generic. I.E. Topping having programmed the Xmos/FGPA to its own spec? Or is this not an issue with a Linux or Mac?

 

[staticV3]

Is it possible to colour the sound if the Xmos driver is not generic. I.E. Topping having programmed the Xmos/FGPA to its own spec?

Technically possible, but fairly certainly not the case with the D10B.

If you're curious, simply buy a Hifime UR23 and do some loopback tests.

 

[Nator]

Hi, i have two questions to all those D10 users.
Do these devices have a "pop" when you restart windows when your AMP and Speakers are on?
The other one ist if someone has used two of those devices and hast managed to send a different crossed over signal to two different devices but from one source. I would like to build a 2.2 configuration with those things and Equalizer APO. The alternative is a more channel DAC which is not so common. Best alternative i found is a audio interface (i.e. MOTU M4) but I believe all of these interfaces have this "Windows-switch-on-pop". And its just not really managable to ALWAYS have the amps on when windows is ready since the startup is "automated" with Logitech Harmony and its options are limited.

Thank you!

 

[rcstevensonaz]

I have never heard a pop anytime my PC has been power cycled.

I'm not familiar with Equalizer APO, so that my be all you need. But if you need the ability to route four channels of 2.2 out via different USB routes from the PC, you might want to look at VB Audio's Matrix application (https://vb-audio.com/Matrix/index.htm). I would think using either of those to send output over two different exclusively managed USB pathways would cover what you need.

And if needed, there are some recommended USB controllers for low latency USB audio that are recommended by the RME crowd. Where you would connect the two D10B's to the same controller card that is separated for the audio only USB paths (though this may be overkill for what you need). For example: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GRGCV2G

 

[Nator]

Thanks for your reply! I will check out the matrix.
Another question would be if i have variating time delays between the two devices?! I would doubt that the two devices are synced?! If it would be a constant delay between the two it would be ok, i can applicate that, but a variation in delay would be bad.

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Let's first start with your premise "a *variation* in delay would be bad".

1. Why? Are you recording multi-track music from different sources (e.g., singer, keyboard player drum)?
2. How much *variation* is too much? Is 1 nanosecond of Std Dev delay too much, what about 1 millisecond, or 1 microsecond?

Others who have engineered muti-channel sound can jump in from their experience of splitting signal to separate DACS vs. on a single multi-channel DAC. They key step is to trace out your complete end-to-end audio chain and look for any points where timing delays (and potential variability) could enter the system; and where such delays can be accommodated and/or compensated (e.g., sub delay can be factored into EQ / room correction processing at upstream point before the channels are split out).

But seems to me:

• Your PC will be the clock source for the two USB devices connected to it (common source master clock)
• VM Matrix (or similar software) will have exclusive control over the two USB devices
• VM Matrix will take either 2 input channels and split to the 2.2 Fronts and Subs, or 4 input channels and route to the 2.2 fronts and subs
• VM Matrix is running on a PC with extremely high CPU cycle (vastly higher than the audio sample rate); and packetization and transmission variability (if it exists) should be be very similar across all four of the outputted channels
• USB cables may vary in length, but transmission delay differences will not be even close to perceptible.
• D10Bs are identical design, but may be using DAC chips from different manufacture dates and the PCB board may have microscopic variations in distances, transistor resistances, etc.; but any differences in delay and delay variation between the two different (non-defective) D10Bs would only be detectible on an extremely precise audio analyzer (and far beyond ability of human hearing to discern.

The rest is downstream from the two respective D10Bs where you will likely have controllable delay differences (e.g., from amplifiers, speakers, subs) that would have been accounted for in the DSP processing on the upstream PC or the downstream device.

 

[Nator]

Hi rcstevensonaz,
thanks for your reply!
i think something like 1ms variation would be too much i think. 1ms at 200Hz would be 72° in Phase, i think it would do a major difference. At lower frequencies its not that tragic. With variation i mean a delay which is different with every hearing session or song or similar. I can measure and compensate all "steady" delays.
I really do not know what microsoft does with two usb dacs. In another thread i even read that it is not possible. maybe with VM Matrix or EAPO its possible. I think i have to test! But how many measurements one has to do to find a accidential variation in delay?! Would be good if someone knows

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Hi rcstevensonaz,
thanks for your reply!
i think something like 1ms variation would be too much i think. 1ms at 200Hz would be 72° in Phase, i think it would do a major difference. At lower frequencies its not that tragic. With variation i mean a delay which is different with every hearing session or song or similar. I can measure and compensate all "steady" delays.
I really do not know what microsoft does with two usb dacs. In another thread i even read that it is not possible. maybe with VM Matrix or EAPO its possible. I think i have to test! But how many measurements one has to do to find a accidential variation in delay?! Would be good if someone knows

VB Audio Matrix can do that (Windows native can't to my understanding as well). I currently have both an RME Digiface USB (w/ TotalMix on PC) and an RME ADI-2 Pro also connected to my PC. I am easily able to mix & match routing of audio between and amongst both devices.

Testing should be pretty simple.

• Use VB Matrix to route a (mono) sine wave or pink noise to the left & right channels on the two USB devices.
• Get two S/PDIF to USB converters (~$30 each) and take the S/PDIF* output from the D10Bs and send back to two additional USB ports into the PC. That said, you can just get one S/PDIF to USB converter and run the experiment two times, once for each of the D10B since they are independent from each other; then compare the outputs of the two runs as though it was a single run.
• Use VB Matrix to capture those two USB inputs and write the received audio to a file (have it also write out the original mono source to file as well)
• Compare the four received audio channels and see whether there is (a) different delays of individual channels or (b) timing variability within each of the four channels

* For this, I'm assuming the DAC function within two different D10Bs is effectively identical since there is no reason to believe there would be any measurable difference in converting the digital input from D to A once received from the USB chip.

P.s., a 1ms variation in delay will have a distribution curve; so let's assume normal distribution for now. That means 50% of the time the variation will be 0, with 1 ms variability 3 standard deviations out from the center in each direction (and much less at the first and second std. dev.). Thus a distribution of the phase ranging from -72° to +72° on that device. Or, a phase ranging form 0° to 72° if the variabiltiy distribution is in one directly only (but still more heavily weighted towards 0° vs. the amount at the 3 std. dev. point. And that is assuming 1ms variability is even meaningful in this context; I have no idea what the actual variability of such devices are in the real world after jitter correction has already been applied by the D10B device.

 

[Svperstar]

For work from home I've been listening to Topping D10 -> Stax SRM-717 -> Stax SR-L500mk2(blu tac)

I got the D10 4 or 5 years ago. People are like "dude you need to upgrade your DAC in the worst way"

Don't hear any deficiencies in the D10 at all.

Just for the heck of it, I bought the D10 Balanced. Be here tomorrow.

 

[Blumlein 88]

For work from home I've been listening to Topping D10 -> Stax SRM-717 -> Stax SR-L500mk2(blu tac)

I got the D10 4 or 5 years ago. People are like "dude you need to upgrade your DAC in the worst way"

Don't hear any deficiencies in the D10 at all.

Just for the heck of it, I bought the D10 Balanced. Be here tomorrow.

Well it is a little better than the non-balanced. It will sound exactly the same I think. Other than having 6 db more output.

 

[Toku]

For work from home I've been listening to Topping D10 -> Stax SRM-717 -> Stax SR-L500mk2(blu tac)

I got the D10 4 or 5 years ago. People are like "dude you need to upgrade your DAC in the worst way"

Don't hear any deficiencies in the D10 at all.

Just for the heck of it, I bought the D10 Balanced. Be here tomorrow.

I have used the D10, D10S and D10B before. They are stable and excellent models. However, DACs have evolved significantly since the D10, so I suggest comparing them with recent models. You can feel the difference even with cheaper models.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I have used the D10, D10S and D10B before. They are stable and excellent models. However, DACs have evolved significantly since the D10, so I suggest comparing them with recent models. You can feel the difference even with cheaper models.

Feel in what way? Sonically, audibly?

 

[kchap]

For work from home I've been listening to Topping D10 -> Stax SRM-717 -> Stax SR-L500mk2(blu tac)

I got the D10 4 or 5 years ago. People are like "dude you need to upgrade your DAC in the worst way"

Don't hear any deficiencies in the D10 at all.

Just for the heck of it, I bought the D10 Balanced. Be here tomorrow.

I have said earlier, I'm a big fan of the D10B. I've had one for a around 4 years. I have DACs that have superior specs and @Toku is right, there are now better performing DACs in that price range, but you will not be disappointed.

To those who already own one, but would want one of these newer cheap DACs, I say: "leave your money in your wallet."

Edited

 

[Toku]

Feel in what way? Sonically, audibly?

I'm an engineer, so this is an acoustic evaluation. You can probably clearly feel the difference. Recently, the sound quality of lower-end models has improved and the difference between them and higher-end models has become smaller. If you are interested in other models, it's worth trying.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I'm an engineer, so this is an acoustic evaluation. You can probably clearly feel the difference. Recently, the sound quality of lower-end models has improved and the difference between them and higher-end models has become smaller. If you are interested in other models, it's worth trying.

So you are saying you audibly, acoustically feel a difference vs other more recent DACs. I find that hard to believe. I own a D10B, and other gear. That is why my recent reply said the D10B would measure better, but you wouldn't hear any difference. So I'll ask the regular question here on ASR. Have you confirmed this feeling with level matched controlled blind listening vs other gear?

 

[Svperstar]

Well it is a little better than the non-balanced. It will sound exactly the same I think. Other than having 6 db more outp

Its louder for sure. I didn't realize that the D10 Balanced comes with 1/4 to XLR adapters, I bought a pair of 1/4 to XLR cables.

I realized the cables were backwards after I took the pictures, but don't feel like taking them again

 

[Svperstar]

there are now better performing DACs in that price range, but you will not be disappointed.

What DACs are better in the same price range?

 

[Blumlein 88]

Its louder for sure. I didn't realize that the D10 Balanced comes with 1/4 to XLR adapters, I bought a pair of 1/4 to XLR cables.

I realized the cables were backwards after I took the pictures, but don't feel like taking them again

I had phones like that, but it was long before I had the D10B. Glad you mentioned the cables. An audiophile thing I guess, but it jumped out at me right away

 

[rcstevensonaz]

Its louder for sure. I didn't realize that the D10 Balanced comes with 1/4 to XLR adapters, I bought a pair of 1/4 to XLR cables.

You are much better off with the cables.

Longer answer: the adapters included with the D10B are very good quality. However, they become a lever with a lot of weight when the TRS adapter is plugged directly into the device. So at a minimum, I would recommend at least getting a short "whip" TRS extension cable (Female to Male). Then plug the TRS extension into the D10B and the TRS/XLR adapter into that extension so that the lever / weight is not directly on the D10B's TRS port.

[Edit: and even better, just get proper cables as @Svperstar did; using the adapter only as a temporary work-around until the TRS -> XLR cables arrive.]