Topping D10 Balanced Review (USB DAC)

[nagster]

Impulse response of D10 Balanced and D10s.
The AP could not measure different inputs at the same time, so I measured them one after the other.
And I haven't been able to stabilize latency either, so I don't have consistent measurements either. But I'll post it anyway.

@MC_RME Is latency stable with the combination of RME interface and RME driver?

 

[danila]

I got Topping D10 Balanced yesterday, and I like it quite a lot!

There is one sound-quality-related problem though. The DAC sometimes produces clicking/cracking sounds when it’s playing music and I adjust the system volume in discrete steps, e.g. using volume-up/down keys on the computer keyboard.

I think this is because D10 applies a new volume level immediately, thus creating a step signal change which sounds like a crack.

The DAC chip itself (ES9038Q2M) supports applying volume change gradually, ramping it up or down with a configurable ramp speed in dB/s. I’ve read somewhere that D10 adjusts the volume not by means of the DAC chip but in the XMOS chip, perhaps in software. And apparently this was not done not according to the standards.

I’m also wondering: if the volume change was implemented this way in D10, what else about volume control wasn’t done properly? Does anyone have D10 measurements with in-DAC attenuation enabled?

@SHENZHENAUDIO, @JohnYang1997, would it maybe be possible to fix this in the firmware? Either by implementing the gradual ramping up/down of the volume level in XMOS or, likely simpler and better, by switching to the hardware volume control in the DAC chip. It would be a pity if such a marvel of electrical and audio engineering (as I believe D10 is) was held back by software engineering.

 

[Toku]

I got Topping D10 Balanced yesterday, and I like it quite a lot!

There is one sound-quality-related problem though. The DAC sometimes produces clicking/cracking sounds when it’s playing music and I adjust the system volume in discrete steps, e.g. using volume-up/down keys on the computer keyboard.

I think this is because D10 applies a new volume level immediately, thus creating a step signal change which sounds like a crack.

The DAC chip itself (ES9038Q2M) supports applying volume change gradually, ramping it up or down with a configurable ramp speed in dB/s. I’ve read somewhere that D10 adjusts the volume not by means of the DAC chip but in the XMOS chip, perhaps in software. And apparently this was not done not according to the standards.

I’m also wondering: if the volume change was implemented this way in D10, what else about volume control wasn’t done properly? Does anyone have D10 measurements with in-DAC attenuation enabled?

@SHENZHENAUDIO, @JohnYang1997, would it maybe be possible to fix this in the firmware? Either by implementing the gradual ramping up/down of the volume level in XMOS or, likely simpler and better, by switching to the hardware volume control in the DAC chip. It would be a pity if such a marvel of electrical and audio engineering (as I believe D10 is) was held back by software engineering.

The D10 Balance does not have any volume controls. Always 100% is a fixed output.
Have you installed the driver provided by Topping on your PC?
What are you using for the player software?
Is the playback mode ASIO? or Is it WASAPI?

All the volume controls you do are internal to your PC.
These symptoms are thought to be caused by the operation and settings of the PC, and the music files used.

for example
The processing speed of your PC is insufficient.
There is an interrupt processing of another program during music playback.
The music file being played contains sound effect signals such as Dolby instead of 2ch stereo.
And so on.

I've been using D10s and D10 balance for over a year and have had no such symptoms. It's working perfectly.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I got Topping D10 Balanced yesterday, and I like it quite a lot!

There is one sound-quality-related problem though. The DAC sometimes produces clicking/cracking sounds when it’s playing music and I adjust the system volume in discrete steps, e.g. using volume-up/down keys on the computer keyboard.

I think this is because D10 applies a new volume level immediately, thus creating a step signal change which sounds like a crack.

The DAC chip itself (ES9038Q2M) supports applying volume change gradually, ramping it up or down with a configurable ramp speed in dB/s. I’ve read somewhere that D10 adjusts the volume not by means of the DAC chip but in the XMOS chip, perhaps in software. And apparently this was not done not according to the standards.

I’m also wondering: if the volume change was implemented this way in D10, what else about volume control wasn’t done properly? Does anyone have D10 measurements with in-DAC attenuation enabled?

@SHENZHENAUDIO, @JohnYang1997, would it maybe be possible to fix this in the firmware? Either by implementing the gradual ramping up/down of the volume level in XMOS or, likely simpler and better, by switching to the hardware volume control in the DAC chip. It would be a pity if such a marvel of electrical and audio engineering (as I believe D10 is) was held back by software engineering.

I have one, and you aren't the first to complain of crackling on volume change. But mine has not done this. I do normally use asio.

 

[kchap]

The D10 Balance does not have any volume controls. Always 100% is a fixed output.
Have you installed the driver provided by Topping on your PC?
What are you using for the player software?
Is the playback mode ASIO? or Is it WASAPI?

All the volume controls you do are internal to your PC.
These symptoms are thought to be caused by the operation and settings of the PC, and the music files used.

for example
The processing speed of your PC is insufficient.
There is an interrupt processing of another program during music playback.
The music file being played contains sound effect signals such as Dolby instead of 2ch stereo.
And so on.

I've been using D10s and D10 balance for over a year and have had no such symptoms. It's working perfectly.

I use the 10B with Volumio and definitely has a HW volume control under Linux. Interestingly the I also have an E50. The E50 does not have the HW volume control. Another member said it was quite common for the MQA version of the chipset not to support HW volume control.

 

[danila]

Thank you, everyone!

The D10 Balanced actually supports volume control commands. This is why Topping advertises connecting active speakers directly to the DAC:

The volume control over USB is supported when connecting the DAC in plug-and-play mode, using no additional drivers. This is why I think this DAC is so great: it takes power from USB, doesn't need any drivers, and supports standard OS volume control. It's also why I bought it. Its noise level is so low and vertical resolution is so high that controlling the volume in digital domain is absolutely sufficient (for a nosy DAC I'd prefer a potentiometer so that the noise level got attenuated too). The only problem is that the volume control wasn't done properly, it seems.

I think ASIO doesn't support volume control commands to the DAC, so the player software has to control volume itself, attenuating the output signal in software. Any decent ASIO player/software presumably knows how to do gradually, without tearing the signal.

 

[staticV3]

@danila UAC2 Hardware volume control works independently of whatever audio API you use.

 

[danila]

I see, I didn't know this. Yeah, everything I said about ASIO were my assumptions (apparently wrong). That said, likely the ASIO player of Blumlein 88 does control the volume itself, hence no cracking.

 

[hyp]

The Soncoz LA-QXD1 I've been using to power my 353x -> L700 for the past 2 years suddenly broke, so I'm looking to replace that with the D10B or the E50.
After spending the last several hours reading ASR posts about both, I'm leaning more towards the D10B as I don't need all the features of the E50 and both measure equally good.

The only thing I'm concerned about at this point is the potential "noise/distortion" in the D10B due to it being USB bus powered. I've read that DACs with a discrete power supply (power brick) are better than USB powered DACs, as USB powered devices could transmit noise from the computer. I've also seen amirm's post comparing noise levels between USB power to a linear power supply and noticed that the USB power was indeed more distorted, but not audibly so. So I think this probably depends mostly on the individual PC and maybe the DAC to a certain extent.

I've come to make a post as I couldn't find any definitive answers regarding this issue with the D10B. I'm not concerned about ground looping causing noise (I believe that won't be an issue as the balanced connection would negate that), but rather the noise from the USB power (from PC)

Can someone provide insight into whether this looks like it could be an issue for me? I am planning on connecting the DAC to a Docking station (not directly to laptop), but it has tons of different connections to it as well as a mess of cables routed all around it. Please correct me if this is mistaken, but I fear this complete mess of cables + all the connections would be a potential source for noise to be transmitted through the USB DAC.

Basically, if there is any audible noise caused by USB power I'd much rather spend the extra 120 and get the E50 which has a discrete power input. But if the USB power noise isn't really audible then I'd happily save my 120.

Any ideas would be really appreciated
Thanks!
-hyp

 

[kchap]

The Soncoz LA-QXD1 I've been using to power my 353x -> L700 for the past 2 years suddenly broke, so I'm looking to replace that with the D10B or the E50.
After spending the last several hours reading ASR posts about both, I'm leaning more towards the D10B as I don't need all the features of the E50 and both measure equally good.

The only thing I'm concerned about at this point is the potential "noise/distortion" in the D10B due to it being USB bus powered. I've read that DACs with a discrete power supply (power brick) are better than USB powered DACs, as USB powered devices could transmit noise from the computer. I've also seen amirm's post comparing noise levels between USB power to a linear power supply and noticed that the USB power was indeed more distorted, but not audibly so. So I think this probably depends mostly on the individual PC and maybe the DAC to a certain extent.

I've come to make a post as I couldn't find any definitive answers regarding this issue with the D10B. I'm not concerned about ground looping causing noise (I believe that won't be an issue as the balanced connection would negate that), but rather the noise from the USB power (from PC)

Can someone provide insight into whether this looks like it could be an issue for me? I am planning on connecting the DAC to a Docking station (not directly to laptop), but it has tons of different connections to it as well as a mess of cables routed all around it. Please correct me if this is mistaken, but I fear this complete mess of cables + all the connections would be a potential source for noise to be transmitted through the USB DAC.

Basically, if there is any audible noise caused by USB power I'd much rather spend the extra 120 and get the E50 which has a discrete power input. But if the USB power noise isn't really audible then I'd happily save my 120.

Any ideas would be really appreciated
Thanks!
-hyp

I have an E50 and a D10B, both connected to RPi4Bs. They use standard use USB SMPS purchased from the local "Office Works" store. I do not have a noise problem with either unit. On balance I prefer the 10B to the E50. They sound the same to me, but I do not need the extra features of the E50.

This is very much specific to RPi, not PC as is your question, but the RPi is weak in the power area. If a RPi was supplying peripherals such as a display or external HDD then the E50/RPi combo has the advantage of having 2 PSUs, 1 for the RPi and 1 for the E50.

 

[hyp]

I have an E50 and a D10B, both connected to RPi4Bs. They use standard use USB SMPS purchased from the local "Office Works" store. I do not have a noise problem with either unit. On balance I prefer the 10B to the E50. They sound the same to me, but I do not need the extra features of the E50.

This is very much specific to RPi, not PC as is your question, but the RPi is weak in the power area. If a RPi was supplying peripherals such as a display or external HDD then the E50/RPi combo has the advantage of having 2 PSUs, 1 for the RPi and 1 for the E50.

Thanks for the reply. I suppose since I'm using a PC I won't be affected too much by the power problem. I just did a test with my LA-QXD1 by plugging the USB power cable first into a power brick then switching to my Docking station while turning the volume up to max. There is definitely a difference between balanced and RCA, but between the Docking station and the power brick there wasn't any audible difference.
I suppose this means there won't be any issues with the D10B either...?

 

[danila]

Just for a reference, I've recorded a video about D10 Balanced DAC producing clicking sounds when I control its hardware volume:

 

[Toku]

Just for a reference, I've recorded a video about D10 Balanced DAC producing clicking sounds when I control its hardware volume:

D10B/D10s used on Windows 10/11 does not have such symptoms at all.
You can smoothly adjust the volume by opening the control panel "Topping USB Audio Device Control Panel" of the Topping ASIO Driver and operating Volume. This control panel is the point where you can directly operate the D10B/D10s.
Your PC system is Apple and Apple PCs use proprietary drivers. So I can't directly compare it with Windows, but I think it's a problem on Apple's PC system side.

 

[Veri]

D10B/D10s used on Windows 10/11 does not have such symptoms at all.
You can smoothly adjust the volume by opening the control panel "Topping USB Audio Device Control Panel" of the Topping ASIO Driver and operating Volume. This control panel is the point where you can directly operate the D10B/D10s.
Your PC system is Apple and Apple PCs use proprietary drivers. So I can't directly compare it with Windows, but I think it's a problem on Apple's PC system side.

Furthermore on Windows you can edit XMOS/Thesycon config file. Some devices' clicking gets fixed when you enable StreamingMode setting, for Aune DACs it helps

XMOS driver settings for no cutoff/delay

I was contemplating on creating a "tutorial" of sorts for all XMOS drivers on devices that have a cutoff -- latency between the start of a sound and the dac "reacting" and actually playing said sound... So here it is: XMOS drivers use a control panel not unlike this: Usually the "Options"...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[staticV3]

D10B/D10s used on Windows 10/11 does not have such symptoms at all.
You can smoothly adjust the volume by opening the control panel "Topping USB Audio Device Control Panel" of the Topping ASIO Driver and operating Volume. This control panel is the point where you can directly operate the D10B/D10s.
Your PC system is Apple and Apple PCs use proprietary drivers. So I can't directly compare it with Windows, but I think it's a problem on Apple's PC system side.

I disagree. The default volume sliders in macOS and Windows will be using UAC2 hardware volume control to control the D10B/S's ES9038Q2M's volume via USB commands
And it seems like this implementation is shoddy and doesn't use smooth fading between steps, whereas the slider inside the Topping provided control panel does use fading.
That's on Topping.

 

[Toku]

I disagree. The default volume sliders in macOS and Windows will be using UAC2 hardware volume control to control the D10B/S's ES9038Q2M's volume via USB commands
And it seems like this implementation is shoddy and doesn't use smooth fading between steps, whereas the slider inside the Topping provided control panel does use fading.
That's on Topping.

Thank you for your explanation.
But I don't agree with your explanation.
Even if it is technically possible, I don't think that the actual product directly controls the DAC chip from the PC side through USB.

 

[staticV3]

Thank you for your explanation.
But I don't agree with your explanation.
Even if it is technically possible, I don't think that the actual product directly controls the DAC chip from the PC side through USB.

At least in Windows, regular software volume is smooth.
The only way it can be jagged is if the OS has recognized that the attached DAC is UAC2 compliant, it is therefore sending USB volume commands out to the DAC to let it handle volume control, and the DAC's volume control is jagged.

Edit: you can test whether Windows is doing the attenuation itself or sending volume commands to the DAC by playing audio using ASIO or Wasapi Exclusive.
If the default volume slider keeps working like always, then Windows is sending commands to the DAC.
If instead the volume slider works like this:
0 -> mute
1-100 -> 100% volume
So like a switch, then the DAC is not UAC2 compliant and volume control is handled by the OS (but currently disabled due to using ASIO)

 

[Atanasi]

Thank you for your explanation.
But I don't agree with your explanation.
Even if it is technically possible, I don't think that the actual product directly controls the DAC chip from the PC side through USB.

UAC2 volume control can also be applied by the USB receiver chip before the signal is passed to the DAC chip, but this is an implementation detail.

 

[Hov]

Curious, would the output remain at ~4Vrms regardless of the volume setting within Windows? If the DAC output is consistent, I imagine it's just a volume control before the chain (as far as Windows goes).

 

[Veri]

Curious, would the output remain at ~4Vrms regardless of the volume setting within Windows? If the DAC output is consistent, I imagine it's just a volume control before the chain (as far as Windows goes).

Uhh no, your volume setting in Windows will directly influence the analog volume output voltage. Lower volume strength will result in less voltage after all.