Topping D10 Balanced Review (USB DAC)

[kchap]

I'll make sure to check it out! Thank you!
I actually did some more demos and some tracks didn't have audible hiss/noise, so I'm convincing myself it's just the tracks.
Also, I would rather live in denial and learn to accept the slightly audible hiss, than spend 100$+ on a DAC then find out the problem is not the DAC xD

Know the feeling. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[srrxr71]

Hate to get onto the connector bandwagon. I have no issues with TRS. So many professional systems use TRS to XLR.

However, this device would be perfect if instead of coax digital out it had AES/EBU. Anyway I have the Canare 75ohm to 110ohm converter and a short BNC to coax cable.

At its price i’m more than happy with what it is. Incredible. The DAC problem is solved!

 

[Bambooken]

My apologies in advance for this question but here goes…
I currently have a D10, RCA out to RCA in on my vintage integrated amp.
Is there a way to connect this DAC in a similar manner (1/4” TRS to RCA)?

 

[srrxr71]

TRS goes to XLR not to RCA. Your setup is fine as it is.

 

[Veri]

I currently have a D10, RCA out to RCA in on my vintage interpreted amp.
Is there a way to connect this DAC in a similar manner (1/4” TRS to RCA)?

It is absolutely advised not to do this. TRS is balanced, RCA is not. D10B performance would hurt by a lot.

 

[Zek]

I currently have a D10, RCA out to RCA in on my vintage integrated amp.
Is there a way to connect this DAC in a similar manner (1/4” TRS to RCA)?

How do you plan to connect TRS to the D10 when it only has RCA connectors?
Maybe you thought of connecting the RCA connectors on the D10 to the TRS connector for another device?

 

[srrxr71]

This is the D10 balanced thread so everyone seems to want to “upgrade” to it even if they lack balanced inputs on their amps/powered speakers. $139 balanced DAC and people are going crazy trying to hook it up to SE equipment. Everyone calm down and look at what inputs your equipment has and buy the appropriate DAC as required. Don’t just buy this because you think it’s “better”.

 

[Mr:River]

Does anyone know if it's good synergy D10B + Xduoo MT604

 

[KSTR]

This is the D10 balanced thread so everyone seems to want to “upgrade” to it even if they lack balanced inputs on their amps/powered speakers. $139 balanced DAC and people are going crazy trying to hook it up to SE equipment. Everyone calm down and look at what inputs your equipment has and buy the appropriate DAC as required. Don’t just buy this because you think it’s “better”.

The D10B really is sort of a giant killer with unbelievable performance for the price... when used balanced. Unbalanced it does degrade and of course you never should short out the (-)drive (Ring contact of the TRS).
The point is that the unbalanced degradation is not very large (though clearly measurabe) and it keeps being an excellent DAC even when properly used unbalanced.

The D10B is very well designed and quite modding-friendly at the same time. A piggy-back PCB could be designed that gives the identical top performance balanced or unbalanced (but still no shorting with TS-plugs allowed). I'm actually planning to make a universal I/V PCB suitable for modding the D10B (and some other low-cost ESS-based DACs).

 

[srrxr71]

The D10B really is sort of a giant killer with unbelievable performance for the price... when used balanced. Unbalanced it does degrade and of course you never should short out the (-)drive (Ring contact of the TRS).
The point is that the unbalanced degradation is not very large (though clearly measurabe) and it keeps being an excellent DAC even when properly used unbalanced.

The D10B is very well designed and quite modding-friendly at the same time. A piggy-back PCB could be designed that gives the identical top performance balanced or unbalanced (but still no shorting with TS-plugs allowed). I'm actually planning to make a universal I/V PCB suitable for modding the D10B (and some other low-cost ESS-based DACs).

I’m confused. I thought the only difference was the 3dB from doubling the signal.

Do the DAC chips basically output balanced and the dac manufacturer has to use I/V conversion to make it single ended?

So I guess the weak link is the I/V conversion in the D10s?

 

[KSTR]

Do the DAC chips basically output balanced and the dac manufacturer has to use I/V conversion to make it single ended?

Sort of.

A DAC chip has a differential current output, that is, two pins. The difference of the two currents is the intended output signal. Ideally, the sum of the two currents would give net zero but in practice they don't and that signal is the common-mode signal and that must be cancelled out to reach the full specs of the DAC chip because it carries more distortion.

Normally (and that's the case here) each of these output currents is converted to a voltage with an I/V-stage, so two I/V's. That already provides a balanced output and that's what Topping uses in the D10B (with a passive post-filter). The receiver (amp or whatever) then does the conversion to single-ended to remove the common-mode signal.

For a dedicated single-ended output at the DAC output there must be a subtractor stage in the DAC after the I/V's that extracts the difference signal and also often does additional high-frequency filtering. This is what we have on most other DACs which have SE outputs (like the D10s). Sometimes further circuitry is added to also create a signal-balanced output.

There are other ways like combining the I/V's and subtractor and filter and unbalanced+balanced outputs in one single circuit block around one single fully-differential OpAmp or one standard dual OpAmp and that's what I'm going to design (soon, hopefully).

 

[Vantavimeow]

Can this connect easily to a A50S? I don't get this weird ass non standard wiring topping keep using on their lower/mid tier products.
The A50S seems pretty gimped without a 4V input when using S/E.
Is there any practical difference between unbalanced in/balanced out and balanced in/balanced out?

 

[staticV3]

Can this connect easily to a A50S? I don't get this weird ass non standard wiring topping keep using on their lower/mid tier products.
The A50S seems pretty gimped without a 4V input when using S/E.
Is there any practical difference between unbalanced in/balanced out and balanced in/balanced out?

Topping state that the A50s input is SE, so I don't think you can plug the D10B's differential output in directly. You could connect D10B Hot->A50s Signal, D10B GND->A50s GND, and leave the D10B's Cold disconnected, but that would halve the D10B's output voltage naturally, along with potentially some other complications, which is why they explicitly don't support that:

 

[srrxr71]

A DAC chip has a differential current output, that is, two pins. The difference of the two currents is the intended output signal. Ideally, the sum of the two currents would give net zero but in practice they don't and that signal is the common-mode signal and that must be cancelled out to reach the full specs of the DAC chip because it carries more distortion.

Normally (and that's the case here) each of these output currents is converted to a voltage with an I/V-stage, so two I/V's. That already provides a balanced output and that's what Topping uses in the D10B (with a passive post-filter). The receiver (amp or whatever) then does the conversion to single-ended to remove the common-mode signal.

For a dedicated single-ended output at the DAC output there must be a subtractor stage in the DAC after the I/V's that extracts the difference signal and also often does additional high-frequency filtering. This is what we have on most other DACs which have SE outputs (like the D10s). Sometimes further circuitry is added to also create a signal-balanced output.

There are other ways like combining the I/V's and subtractor and filter and unbalanced+balanced outputs in one single circuit block around one single fully-differential OpAmp or one standard dual OpAmp and that's what I'm going to design (soon, hopefully).

What is a signal balanced output? Is that where they create a balanced output after canceling the common mode signal? I suppose that could be then connected to a SE input by shorting on side to ground?

I’m looking forward to your modded design. The D10B seems like the perfect platform for it. Obtaining D10B performance but ability to connect to SE devices.

 

[KSTR]

I don’t mind companies pricing products according to their utility rather than their cost to produce. Does this mean that the D10B is actually a simpler product to produce?

Yes, BOM cost etc is lower, fewer parts.

What is a signal balanced output? Is that where they create a balanced output after canceling the common mode signal?

Yes. The idea of balanced connections is a) to have impedance symmetry and, more importantly, b) to avoid "GND balancing currents" between gear to develop an error voltage in the cable (yep, the classic ground loop issue). Signal symmetry is not required but it makes sense to do that as well as then the output voltage can be quite large even with low supply voltage like +-5V. You cannot swing 4Vrms (which means +-5.7Vpeak) with 5V supplies.

I suppose that could be then connected to a SE input by shorting on side to ground?

No. Shorting one of the output lines is only allowed with true floating transformer output or their electronic equivalent, the servo-balanced output. When you short one line to GND with these, the other line automatically doubles its output voltage so that the net difference is the same.

 

[srrxr71]

Yes, BOM cost etc is lower, fewer parts.

Yes. The idea of balanced connections is a) to have impedance symmetry and, more importantly, b) to avoid "GND balancing currents" between gear to develop an error voltage in the cable (yep, the classic ground loop issue). Signal symmetry is not required but it makes sense to do that as well as then the output voltage can be quite large even with low supply voltage like +-5V. You cannot swing 4Vrms (which means +-5.7Vpeak) with 5V supplies.

No. Shorting one of the output lines is only allowed with true floating transformer output or their electronic equivalent, the servo-balanced output. When you short one line to GND with these, the other line automatically doubles its output voltage so that the net difference is the same.

I’m not very knowledgeable about stuff like this but it all makes sense now. I remember when the Sony SCD-1 came out people were complaining that the balanced out was I/V converted and cancelled instead of coming straight from the DAC. So it seems they created a signal balanced output with electronics after the DAC output. Those days audiophiles were “purists” and frowned on “unnecessary” active electronics in the signal path. They wanted everything to be passive as much as possible.

I’m sure Sony knew what they were doing.

 

[Veri]

Can this connect easily to a A50S? I don't get this weird ass non standard wiring topping keep using on their lower/mid tier products.
The A50S seems pretty gimped without a 4V input when using S/E.
Is there any practical difference between unbalanced in/balanced out and balanced in/balanced out?

Amir's review of A50s is a bit weird in that you can't normally get 4V balanced through those RCA inputs. A single adapter cable won't do that, output will be halved and you won't have any more power. Single ended inputs only..

 

[ADoIDo]

Love the DAC so far but it's crashing windows 10 fairly regularly. Then when windows restarts there's no audio until I unplug/replug the usb.

If this is common, what's the fix? I'm trying to avoid starting a dedicated thread for this.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Love the DAC so far but it's crashing windows 10 fairly regularly. Then when windows restarts there's no audio until I unplug/replug the usb.

If this is common, what's the fix? I'm trying to avoid starting a dedicated thread for this.

I haven't kept up with this entire thread. Are you using it with ASIO? I use mine that way and haven't had any trouble with it crashing windows or doing some of the other things described.

 

[ADoIDo]

Are you using it with ASIO?

Excuse me I'm a little slow, what's ASIO?

Just have it hooked up to a win 10 computer and a couple active monitors via trs.