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Topping D10 Balanced Review (USB DAC)

Hee

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It's because there was never a clear reason provided; at least I haven't seen one, so I put my L30 on the D10b.
The only reason I've seen John give was 'sample rate change popping noises', which I don't care about. I'm not changing my sample rate and I'm not using direct stream players with source content on different sample rates.
Too many people use the wrong adapters, which tie negative and ground together, which results is poor performance (SINAD in the 80s iirc), which would hurt Topping's reputation and thus I can understand why they advise against it in general.
Both issues were a non concern to me, so I went and did it. If it wasn't for the DC pops on driver time-out, the D10b would be perfectly fine to connect to a SE device, when using the right adapter.
I believe it's an analog switch for toppings.
You can remove it and connect the wire directly, but you can't find the place to purchase the part.
 
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Because it's a cheap USB DAC it doesn't go very far in filtering and a ground loop over its USB is not impossible. The E30 is simply better in this regard.
Thanks for explaining! I think I'm gonna go with the E30 then. Should pair well with my heresy.
 
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Btw, how would I know if the noise is from the DAC or if it's just from the recording?

I have my FiiO K3 as a line out to the heresy, and even when I have high gain on the K3 and high gain on the heresy and max their volumes I hear nothing when I'm not playing anything. But when I play music at higher volumes (low gain max volume on K3 , high gain 1-3 o'clock on heresy) I do hear some noise in many songs. Is it just that I'm listening at abnormal volumes that the noise from the recording starts unveiling? Are there any greatly produced recordings to test the noise?
Using both the hd6xx and the hd560s. I'm actually very confused but very intrigued.
 

KSTR

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I guess that's why they still advise not to do it though. Seems kinda risky especially paired with some DC coupled amp :D
Well, no.

The 60mV (measured) common-mode offset will not be killing amps/speaker or anything because that's more than 30x below full-scale. Differnential offset is zero. I'd rather be afraid of DC in the recordings itself as that is an uncontrolled variable with a much higher risk. It's often way higher than 3% (since RME introduced the digital DC protection for the ADI-2 many users have found lots of DC in recordings/streams).

Single-ended connection of the D10B is not recommended for two reasons:
- risk of shorting out one OpAmp when using a TS Plug is accidently inserted (will not fry the OpAmp, though).
- but even with the correct adapter plug (not connecting to the ring of the TRS at all) you'll completely spoil its excellent distortion specs, by at least a factor of 10 (20dB). This is a design choice by Topping.
 

KSTR

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Because it's a cheap USB DAC it doesn't go very far in filtering and a ground loop over its USB is not impossible. The E30 is simply better in this regard.
Sorry, no. The E30 is as non-isolated on USB as most any other USB DAC and hence likely to allow "ground loop" (which is a cable-related error, not an issue in the DAC itself) as much as any other DAC with unbalanced outputs.

And what do you mean by filtering?

btw, actually the E30 can be worse wrt Ground Loop producing as it has an additional DC input.
 

Veri

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Single-ended connection of the D10B is not recommended for two reasons:
- risk of shorting out one OpAmp when using a TS Plug is accidently inserted (will not fry the OpAmp, though).
- but even with the correct adapter plug (not connecting to the ring of the TRS at all) you'll completely spoil its excellent distortion specs, by at least a factor of 10 (20dB). This is a design choice by Topping.
Right, Archimago noticed the same w.r.t. distortion.

Sorry, no. The E30 is as non-isolated on USB as most any other USB DAC and hence likely to allow "ground loop" (which is a cable-related error, not an issue in the DAC itself) as much as any other DAC with unbalanced outputs.

And what do you mean by filtering?

btw, actually the E30 can be worse wrt Ground Loop producing as it has an additional DC input.
Sorry, I spoke from personal experience but that could be random I suppose, I'm sure you're right. Haven't seen much if any reports of E30 with ground loops on this forum though, while there's a bunch of people complaining about the D10. But again, anecdotal.
 

KSTR

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Is that because it's not powered with a power supply? Or is it just all USB DACs and that I'm better off using an optical?
The reasons is "ground loop" currents that arise when several equipment is connected.
Combine this with unabalanced cabling and that current creates an error signal in the cable.

Optical isolates the digital input but then a DAC of course needs an external supply and that can induce the same issue again unless is a very good supply with high mains isolation. USB chargers etc do not need to apply.
 

KSTR

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PCB gut shot:
pcb.jpg
 
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The reasons is "ground loop" currents that arise when several equipment is connected.
Combine this with unabalanced cabling and that current creates an error signal in the cable.

Optical isolates the digital input but then a DAC of course needs an external supply and that can induce the same issue again unless is a very good supply with high mains isolation. USB chargers etc do not need to apply.
Oh god, I do use some other equipment so that could be the reason. The problem is, I'm using a laptop (connected to power) and it doesn't have optical (only 2xUSB-A 3.1 and 1xThunderbolt PCIe x2 Type C). So if I have no choice but to use USB then I'm guessing D10S is a safer option?
Then again, as I mentioned above I'm still not sure if it's just the recordings.
 

KSTR

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FWIW
The 60mV (measured) common-mode DC offset...
... can be systematically be reduced by placing a compensation resistor on top of the 10k in the Vref divider.

A simulation showed the nominal (with ideal OpAmps) DC offset is -54.5mV with the stock values. Measured value was -60mV.

Ideally it would reduce to zero with 430k. Actual zero (< 1mV) was obtained here with 390k, for all 4 outputs.
 

kchap

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Oh god, I do use some other equipment so that could be the reason. The problem is, I'm using a laptop (connected to power) and it doesn't have optical (only 2xUSB-A 3.1 and 1xThunderbolt PCIe x2 Type C). So if I have no choice but to use USB then I'm guessing D10S is a safer option?
Then again, as I mentioned above I'm still not sure if it's just the recordings.
The laptop itself should not be grounded. Apart from the DAC, what else is coct to the laptop?
EDIT "what else is connected ..."
 
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half_dog

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Oh god, I do use some other equipment so that could be the reason. The problem is, I'm using a laptop (connected to power) and it doesn't have optical (only 2xUSB-A 3.1 and 1xThunderbolt PCIe x2 Type C). So if I have no choice but to use USB then I'm guessing D10S is a safer option?
Then again, as I mentioned above I'm still not sure if it's just the recordings.
I'm using my D10s (connected to a L30) with a G7 7588 and there's no noise (except in that condition I've talked before, high gain, sensitive IEM...). One thing that I realized and have the opportunity to witness a few times (it's seems a common issue and not so obvious): if the DAC, the amp or both have another ground path beside from audio signal, as a ground wire (I don't know if I'm it explaining right), connected to a pc this setup might have some ground loop either a audible digital noise.

Eg.: the stack E30+L30 connected via USB to a grounded pc/laptop probably it won't have any problem because they have only one grounding path: L30 to E30 RCA and E30 to pc via USB. But A30Pro and D30pro both are grounded beside the ground the audio connection. What avoid noise in this case is the balanced connection but if these are connected via RCA it is possible to hear some cracking. Coming to back L30, if you paired it with a floating source like your smartphone you may hear some noise - and feel some current leakage on L30 body, in this case, a grounded amplifier would be better.

I'm not completely safe about what I tried to explain. Anyone with more knowledge, please, confirm or correct this information.
Excuse my poor English...
 
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The laptop itself should not be grounded. Apart from the DAC, what else is coct to the laptop?
EDIT "what else is connected ..."
I have 2 USB Hubs connected to each of the USB 3.1 ports. 1 hub has an ethernet RJ45 connector, a USB keyboard, and the Fiio K3. The other hub has 2 usbs for wireless mice and 1 usb for wireless keyboard.
 
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I'm using my D10s (connected to a L30) with a G7 7588 and there's no noise (except in that condition I've talked before, high gain, sensitive IEM...). One thing that I realized and have the opportunity to witness a few times (it's seems a common issue and not so obvious): if the DAC, the amp or both have another ground path beside from audio signal, as a ground wire (I don't know if I'm it explaining right), connected to a pc this setup might have some ground loop either a audible digital noise.

Eg.: the stack E30+L30 connected via USB to a grounded pc/laptop probably it won't have any problem because they have only one grounding path: L30 to E30 RCA and E30 to pc via USB. But A30Pro and D30pro both are grounded beside the ground the audio connection. What avoid noise in this case is the balanced connection but if these are connected via RCA it is possible to hear some cracking. Coming to back L30, if you paired it with a floating source like your smartphone you may hear some noise - and feel some current leakage on L30 body, in this case, a grounded amplifier would be better.

I'm not completely safe about what I tried to explain. Anyone with more knowledge, please, confirm or correct this information.
Excuse my poor English...
Interesting. I'm actually not educated in this field so if anyone can refer an article to understand more that would be great!
Don't worry, your English is very good!
 

kchap

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I have 2 USB Hubs connected to each of the USB 3.1 ports. 1 hub has an ethernet RJ45 connector, a USB keyboard, and the Fiio K3. The other hub has 2 usbs for wireless mice and 1 usb for wireless keyboard.
Typically the charger will be double insulated, therefore not earthed and the the Ethernet port is transformer coupled. It's possible that a PSU or piece of equipment is noisy but there should not be a an earth loop problem.
 
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Typically the charger will be double insulated, therefore not earthed and the the Ethernet port is transformer coupled. It's possible that a PSU or piece of equipment is noisy but there should not be a an earth loop problem.
Thing is, I'm using the Fiio K3 as a line out DAC and it's known for having a little higher noise floor. But I don't know if that's what I'm hearing or if it's just the recordings. I've been looking for ways to check if it's the recording or the DAC and I still haven't found any.
 

kchap

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I play with sox from time to time. There will be a way to generate both 16 bit and 24 bit files filled with silence. I will check the web. Don't make it 4 min and 33 sec long; John Cage will sue.
 

kchap

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Thing is, I'm using the Fiio K3 as a line out DAC and it's known for having a little higher noise floor. But I don't know if that's what I'm hearing or if it's just the recordings. I've been looking for ways to check if it's the recording or the DAC and I still haven't found any.
I did a check on the web and tried this on the PC. It will generate 30 seconds of silence.

16 BIT
sox.exe -n -r 44100 -b 16 -c 2 silence16.wav trim 0.0 30.0

24 BIT
sox.exe -n -r 44100 -b 24 -c 2 silence24.wav trim 0.0 30.0

Generate the files and play them back through your system. Any noise you hear is probably the DAC and/or amp.
 
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I'll make sure to check it out! Thank you!
I actually did some more demos and some tracks didn't have audible hiss/noise, so I'm convincing myself it's just the tracks.
Also, I would rather live in denial and learn to accept the slightly audible hiss, than spend 100$+ on a DAC then find out the problem is not the DAC xD
 
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