Topping Centaurus R2R DAC Review

[SMen]

One can use the latest materials and engineering techniques to build a raft to cross the Atlantic, or one can board a modern airplane to do the same, faster, safer, and cheaper. While first one is an engineering achievement, it's still not the way I'd prefer to travel. YMMV.

Well yes, but your analogy is rather more diverting a raft via the Pacific, Indian Ocean and Cape of Good Hope!

 

[SMen]

High-quality vinyl and CD pressings have been recording increasing sales figures for years and have overtaken everything else in terms of increasing growth figures, currently including streaming.

Yes, but I'm a dinosaur discovering streaming lol ... but in seriousness, I use it to judge whether a vinyl purchase might be worthwhile.

And (post edit) ... it's interesting comparing the two media when assessing amplifiers for example. But that is off topic.

I'm actually tempted by one of these Centaurus DAC's ... I think it might be something in the name!

 

[SMen]

And I can assure you from my own experience that this is exactly what doesn't work.
With many interesting productions, the quality and mixing can be very different between current and older versions.
There are a few threads about this and many reviews and blog posts that deal with it.

But that's off topic in this thread.

In a way I think we are agreeing. Or I agree with you : "With many interesting productions, the quality and mixing can be very different between current and older versions."

But indeed, off topic.

 

[Roland68]

Yes, but I'm a dinosaur discovering streaming lol ... but in seriousness, I use it to judge whether a vinyl purchase might be worthwhile.

And (post edit) ... it's interesting comparing the two media when assessing amplifiers for example. But that is off topic.

I'm actually tempted by one of these Centaurus DAC's ... I think it might be something in the name!

And I can assure you from my own experience that this is exactly what doesn't work.
With many interesting productions, the quality and mixing can be very different between digital and vinyl. With current and older productions/versions.
There are a few threads about this and many reviews and blog posts that deal with it.

But that's off topic in this thread.

 

[oleg87]

Comparing R2R DACs to vinyl or even something like tube amps is a bit strange. If Topping didn’t tell you what was inside the box, you would have no idea this was anything other than some random ESS/AKM dac. Nothing against companies making a living off inane audiophile implementation detail fetishism, but you don’t even get an overt vintage cool factor here.

 

[jimbones]

Maybe you didnt like this one but to stereotype ALL R2R Dacs as being bad is incorrect and misleading. There are some fine products based on both technologies. Digital has gotten so good these days.

 

[VientoB]

Maybe you didnt like this one but to stereotype ALL R2R Dacs as being bad is incorrect and misleading. There are some fine products based on both technologies. Digital has gotten so good these days.

Digital has always been good

What people are saying is that R2R will always be playing catch up to chip DACs.

 

[formdissolve]

My Parasound DAC has the vaunted PCM-63P line of chips which I really enjoy.. but looking at the spec sheet I see the linearity is terrible.

How exactly does poor linearity affect sound?

 

[Sokel]

What I can tell judging from myself is the bias is powerful.
I will always love AKM,no matter what for example.

I do have a R2R based very early machine,and the funny thing is that didn't get it for audio but... video back at around 2000.
A DENON DVD5000 which uses 4 BB 1704 for audio.It wasn't until a long time after I learned about the myth of this stuff.

To tell the truth no rabbits emerge from hats when I spin it for CDs,it just plays.No magic.I expect the same for this one.

 

[Jimbob54]

My Parasound DAC has the vaunted PCM-63P line of chips which I really enjoy.. but looking at the spec sheet I see the linearity is terrible.

How exactly does poor linearity affect sound?

View attachment 414404

How important is DAC linearity?

I'm wondering how important this linearity measurement is. The very well regarded Topping D30 only gets an effective value of 15 bits. Even the topping D10 hits 20 bits (I can't find the image, Amir measured it somewhere on the forum). I've been looking at the Sanskrit 10th, interested in the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[formdissolve]

How important is DAC linearity?

I'm wondering how important this linearity measurement is. The very well regarded Topping D30 only gets an effective value of 15 bits. Even the topping D10 hits 20 bits (I can't find the image, Amir measured it somewhere on the forum). I've been looking at the Sanskrit 10th, interested in the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Thanks Jimbob, I actually just found that thread as well!

 

[piaseczek]

Does the May suffer from linearity issues?

Of course it does:

https://www.l7audiolab.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/May-SMPTE-Ratio.jpg

 

[NTTY]

My Parasound DAC has the vaunted PCM-63P line of chips which I really enjoy.. but looking at the spec sheet I see the linearity is terrible.

How exactly does poor linearity affect sound?

View attachment 414404

It’s actually very good with 16bits dithered. It looks ok down to -110dBFS but at this level the test tone is buried in the dithered noise. At -100dBFS it is very good, which is enough. That means you could hear clearly the tone, if pushing the volume at max.

I can probably add a view if that from an ancient CD player. Let me grab my PC.

Here you go with the Revox B 126 which had a Philips TDA1541A. This is 999.91Hz @-100dBFS with dither:

It misses it by only 1.5dB (the interface taking the measurement has a 0.5dB headroom). Of course, this is with 16bits data, as it's the limit of Audio CD and of that DAC too. But we are here, thanks to dither.

At -110dBFS, the deviation is above 2dB, but can we do better? Yes we can, thanks to noise shaping, which, by the way, Philips used in its first DAC, in 1983.

So let's try with the same Revox, this time with a test tone at -110dBFS, but with noise shaping instead of standard dither:

Yeah, -110dBFS nailed. Again that is with 16bits Audio CD and 16bits R2R standard DAC of 35 years ago.

Noise shaping is today very common and used by all studios when creating a 16bits master.

Note: home digital recorder of the past considered anything below -50dBFS to be silence and so would stop recording

 

[Dougey_Jones]

Once a month someone asks me what R2R DAC they should buy. They say they have tried all the ESS/AKM DACs and want to play with something new. When I tell them I have nothing to recommend, some accept that, but others downright get angry with me! Now I can tell them to go and get the Centaurus and sleep easy that it at least doesn't compromise much fidelity.

While I would not buy or use an R2R DAC, I am still going to recommend the Topping Centaurus for those who want an R2R technoloy.
------------

We desperately need the Fiio K11 R2R reviewed. $999 is still steep to have something new to play with, but $159 is not:

https://www.amazon.com/FiiO-K11-Headphone-Amplifier-Balanced/dp/B0D9BCRVXN/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1VP3N6N9TEZ12&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Ebb0jlUOwLKBr25JRxJzlTJ-WDrLmfR-tIvI4sRG5jnPje-3k9_PrvvEGCd_EZs4dftYKEgWXH1BEJpNYAo3QrOHjSmEZwRSsaxbfIsAGNDzedG-kGYM61ZdVpOT2jqgwkT3WdZRXsDDMNHVR0yKTdUEJbbEmGYmNAyEDDbeNeCkUbMD7QqEACEixd1SR2NgGk3--N5U0t6v6THboXVUiQyRp6xUDNIPP_bp4Wz0Tuo.37H3y_pt8JFaAYoeJeGy2BY12W7cfGst0JGs9na4158&dib_tag=se&keywords=k11+r2r&qid=1734374554&sprefix=k11+r2%2Caps%2C180&sr=8-2

 

[Sokel]

We desperately need the Fiio K11 R2R reviewed. $999 is still steep to have something new to play with, but $159 is not:

https://www.amazon.com/FiiO-K11-Headphone-Amplifier-Balanced/dp/B0D9BCRVXN/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1VP3N6N9TEZ12&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Ebb0jlUOwLKBr25JRxJzlTJ-WDrLmfR-tIvI4sRG5jnPje-3k9_PrvvEGCd_EZs4dftYKEgWXH1BEJpNYAo3QrOHjSmEZwRSsaxbfIsAGNDzedG-kGYM61ZdVpOT2jqgwkT3WdZRXsDDMNHVR0yKTdUEJbbEmGYmNAyEDDbeNeCkUbMD7QqEACEixd1SR2NgGk3--N5U0t6v6THboXVUiQyRp6xUDNIPP_bp4Wz0Tuo.37H3y_pt8JFaAYoeJeGy2BY12W7cfGst0JGs9na4158&dib_tag=se&keywords=k11+r2r&qid=1734374554&sprefix=k11+r2%2Caps%2C180&sr=8-2

It's about 74dB SINAD by their own specs.
Noise figures are very low though:
Single-ended: < 7.2uV (A-weighted)
Balanced: < 14.1uV (A-weighted)

(all the above at the HP outputs)

So depending on the distortion pattern,IMD,etc,it can very well be inaudible with music.

 

[Dougey_Jones]

It's about 74dB SINAD by their own specs.
Noise figures are very low though:
Single-ended: < 7.2uV (A-weighted)
Balanced: < 14.1uV (A-weighted)

(all the above at the HP outputs)

So depending on the distortion pattern,IMD,etc,it can very well be inaudible with music.

I'd rather Amir actually test it than assume.

 

[VientoB]

It's about 74dB SINAD by their own specs.
Noise figures are very low though:
Single-ended: < 7.2uV (A-weighted)
Balanced: < 14.1uV (A-weighted)

(all the above at the HP outputs)

So depending on the distortion pattern,IMD,etc,it can very well be inaudible with music.

SINAD of the headphone amp? How about the DAC itself?

 

[Dougey_Jones]

SINAD of the headphone amp? How about the DAC itself?

Exactly, I don't give a rat hat about the HPA, I wanna know how this performs as a DAC. Fiio makes it seem like their product is fairly state of the art, despite the low price:

Desktop DAC and Headphone Amplifier-K11 R2R

Guangzhou FiiO Electronics Technology Co., Ltd.

www.fiio.com

The other question I have, and I'm happy to be educated if I'm misunderstanding, is that I was under the impression that resistor ladder DAC's were actually technically superior to DS implementations as long as their SINAD is sufficiently high and the digital format doesn't outstrip the ability of the resistor ladder to fully decode the waveform without truncating it.

For example, when Amir reviewed the Denafrips Ares he noted that it was capable of resolving I think 19-20 bits, or thereabouts. 99% of my listening is 16/44 redbook CD, which most modern R2R implementations can handily decode with no truncation.

Can someone explain why an R2R DAC wouldn't be superior to DS in these scenarios?

 

[staticV3]

SINAD of the headphone amp? How about the DAC itself?

All K11 R2R outputs have max 72dB SINAD:


R2R distortion is the limiting factor.

 

[VientoB]

The other question I have, and I'm happy to be educated if I'm misunderstanding, is that I was under the impression that resistor ladder DAC's were actually technically superior to DS implementations as long as their SINAD is sufficiently high and the digital format doesn't outstrip the ability of the resistor ladder to fully decode the waveform without truncating it.

For example, when Amir reviewed the Denafrips Ares he noted that it was capable of resolving I think 19-20 bits, or thereabouts. 99% of my listening is 16/44 redbook CD, which most modern R2R implementations can handily decode with no truncation.

Can someone explain why an R2R DAC wouldn't be superior to DS in these scenarios?

Why would it be?