Topping B200 Monoblock Amplifier Review

[dcolak]

I also found Icepower 1200AS2 dual monos has absolute control and drives over my McIntosh XRT18s. My dual mono amps based on 3e Audio 480-1-29 are sweeter than 1200AS2 in the mid and treble.

No no no, all amps sound the same, if they have same amount of distortion and work below their max limit!

 

[KL....]

maxchau said:
I also found Icepower 1200AS2 dual monos has absolute control and drives over my McIntosh XRT18s. My dual mono amps based on 3e Audio 480-1-29 are sweeter than 1200AS2 in the mid and treble.

No no no, all amps sound the same, if they have same amount of distortion and work below their max limit!

Thank you, @dcolak/@maxchau, Yes, also (not the B200 but the Buckeye is a high performing Amp, isn't it?) for Consideration and Discussion....

• Buckeye 3 Channel Purifi Amp Review.... Not Recommended
• Buckeye 3 Channel Purifi Amplifier Review (2nd).... Recommended

With consideration to ClassD, LC output, preFFB/PFFB, Output Connectors/Connector Material, THD+N - 103dB for 1st Version (Not Recommended) and 106db 2nd Version (Recommended)….

• PFFB is considered Higher Performing than preFFB, why?.... because it includes the the LC process in the GFB/NFB process which can (if possable) correct the non Linearity of the LC/etc process/s. This implys that the Output Connectors are not included in the PFFB, doesn't it? It was suggested and implyed that the 1st Versions Lesser Performance (3dB less) was due to the Output Connectors/Connector Material, wasn't it? Noteing that the 1st Versions THD+N of 103dB is considered as Excellent (High Performing), which is reasonable, isn't it, it could be suggested (by ASR Consensus) that Version 1 and Version 2 will Sound the same but do they?
  • If they do Sound the same then perhaps no need to improve/change anything, reasonable? A THD+N of 103dB is already considered as Excellent (High Performing), isn't it?
  • If they do Not Sound the same then this could be considered as the effect of the Output Connectors/Connector Material, especially as the Output Connectors are not included in the PFFB, reasonable? This also suggests that the Application of Materials can affect Measure/Performance, Application of PFFB can correct/improve Measure/Performance, but will/do they Sound the same?
  • Note the FR is Ruler Flat for Version 1 & 2, and SNR is the same (High Performing)....
• Can this also occur at the Input Stage? If the Input Connectors are not included in the Input Stage GFB/NFB (Process/Correction) and/or CMRR (Difference/Differential or SE Input) then the answer can/would be Yes, wouldn't it?

Also for consideration, Group B would (perhaps/likely) not hear a difference, would they, but would Group A? You can look at ASR.... A video on testing the audibility of recording preamps and decide for yourself....

 

[Everett T]

Has anyone ever Tried to attach a single REL sub to Dual Topping Blocks?

More information is needed...

 

[KL....]

Has anyone ever Tried to attach a single REL sub to Dual Topping Blocks?

Thank you, @globadyne, you can think of the B200 mono (separate/2 cases, 2 channels) as dual mono (single/1 case, 2 channels/Stereo), can't you? What does that mean....

• The REL sub needs to allow connection of the 2 channels (like 2.2 but to 1 sub), doesn't it, whether by Line In/LPF/ELP/etc or HL (if the RELs HL connection is not Power Earth grounded as this would create a Short Circuit), otherwise if only 1 channel connection is allowed then connection can only be from 1 mono (like 2.1, 1 mono/channel connection).... is that correct?
  • Although, for Line In/LPF/ELP/etc and only 1 channel connection, you could try a 2to1 adapter (at the Sub).... is that correct?
• Note that the B200 is (internally) Bridged (Balanced/BTL/PBTL/Bridged), isn't it, which means for HL, the RELs HL connection cannot be Power Earth grounded.

 

[Maniekok]

I own Klipsch Palladium P-39F speakers with crossovers modified using Mundorf components (I have the full Palladium set, but only the P-39Fs are modified).
I use a Denon AVR-8500H.
Currently, the front channels are set up for bi-amping, but I am very interested in using Topping B200s for the left and right channels via the pre-amp output (eventually using two per channel for bi-amping). I know my speakers dip below 4 ohms, but I listen at moderate volumes—no louder than a conversation—and I value micro-dynamics, a sense of airiness, and distinct instrument separation. For stereo playback, I use a Raspberry Pi with a lifetime Volumio license and a Topping D90 III Discrete DAC.
Will the signal from the Denon AVR-8500H be suitable for the Topping B200 set to High Gain (+22 dB)?

What do you think about using these power amplifiers with my Palladiums? I plan to use this cable for the connection:

MOGAMI DJ PRO 2964 RCA-to-XLRM Interconnect (1.5m)

 

[Svend P]

Crossover components do not matter. Cables do not matter. Biamping does not give you more power. All amplifiers sound the same when not driven to distortion

Bi-amping 101

This article provides a quick look at how bi-amplification works. The conventional scheme is to split the signal into two frequency bands before the power amplifiers that drive the speakers. The bass (LF) amp sees only LF signals and drives only the LF driver (woofer). The treble (HF) amp sees...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[antcollinet]

I own Klipsch Palladium P-39F speakers with crossovers modified using Mundorf components (I have the full Palladium set, but only the P-39Fs are modified).
I use a Denon AVR-8500H.
Currently, the front channels are set up for bi-amping, but I am very interested in using Topping B200s for the left and right channels via the pre-amp output (eventually using two per channel for bi-amping). I know my speakers dip below 4 ohms, but I listen at moderate volumes—no louder than a conversation—and I value micro-dynamics, a sense of airiness, and distinct instrument separation. For stereo playback, I use a Raspberry Pi with a lifetime Volumio license and a Topping D90 III Discrete DAC.
Will the signal from the Denon AVR-8500H be suitable for the Topping B200 set to High Gain (+22 dB)?

What do you think about using these power amplifiers with my Palladiums? I plan to use this cable for the connection:

MOGAMI DJ PRO 2964 RCA-to-XLRM Interconnect (1.5m)

What are you aiming to get from the B200s that you don't currently have?

 

[Maniekok]

What are you aiming to get from the B200s that you don't currently have?

More micro-dynamics, a sense of air, and clearer instrument separation.

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

Here we go again

 

[dtaylo1066]

To air is human, said the hi-fi bard.

 

[Maniekok]

The Klipsch Palladium P-39F speakers are nominally 4 Ω, with an impedance minimum in the 2.7–3.2 Ω range (depending on the measurement). They are not extremely difficult loads like Magnepans, which can drop below 2 Ω with very poor phase characteristics. TOPPING B200: 8 Ω (various phases) 158–194 W; 4 Ω (various phases) 140–210 W; 2 Ω (0° resistive) ~71–84 W; 2 Ω (30°/60° inductive) 0 W (protection). I listen to music (and home cinema) at a maximum volume of 40 on the Denon AVR-8500H's 0–90 scale. Will this work? I’m not asking about the sonic benefits of the purchase, but rather whether the Denon will output sufficient signal to drive the power amps—specifically, if I set the TOPPING B200 to High Gain (22 dB), it requires only 3.9 Vrms for full power; will that be okay?
The Denon outputs 1.2 V – 2.0 V RMS from the factory. To fully drive the Topping B200 on the High Gain setting, you need an input signal of approximately 1.4 V RMS. I’d appreciate some help confirming if I’ve understood this correctly.

 

[MAB]

The Klipsch Palladium P-39F speakers are nominally 4 Ω, with an impedance minimum in the 2.7–3.2 Ω range (depending on the measurement). They are not extremely difficult loads like Magnepans, which can drop below 2 Ω with very poor phase characteristics. TOPPING B200: 8 Ω (various phases) 158–194 W; 4 Ω (various phases) 140–210 W; 2 Ω (0° resistive) ~71–84 W; 2 Ω (30°/60° inductive) 0 W (protection). I listen to music (and home cinema) at a maximum volume of 40 on the Denon AVR-8500H's 0–90 scale. Will this work? I’m not asking about the sonic benefits of the purchase, but rather whether the Denon will output sufficient signal to drive the power amps—specifically, if I set the TOPPING B200 to High Gain (22 dB), it requires only 3.9 Vrms for full power; will that be okay?
The Denon outputs 1.2 V – 2.0 V RMS from the factory. To fully drive the Topping B200 on the High Gain setting, you need an input signal of approximately 1.4 V RMS. I’d appreciate some help confirming if I’ve understood this correctly.

I think the Denon will drive the Klipsch easily despite the moderately difficult impedance.

It will also drive the Magnepan. Magnepan are actually mostly resistive loads. They are not exceptionally low impedance, and they typically have low phase angle. They are also low efficiency, which has caused people to drive them too hard, leading to the popular (but technically wrong conclusion) that they are somehow hard to drive or need massive power. Not saying they are easy, but they are not a problem for most amps. I sold them in the '80s and could drive them with any amp in our store, including Niles commercial installation amps.

But don't take my word for it, they have been measured, for example:

Magnepan LRS Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Magnepan LRS (Little Ribbon Speaker). It was kindly sent to me by a member and costs US $650. NOTE: as you will see later, this is a special review with far more detail than I usually show in a speaker test. I thought it would be "fun" to see...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Magnepan Magneplanar MG3.6/R loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

Sidebar 3: Measurements The Magnepan's estimated voltage sensitivity was on the low side, at 83.5dB(B)/2.83V/m. However, in a typical room the speaker's quasi-line-source vertical dispersion should make it sound a little louder than might otherwise be expected. (The in-room loudness of a true...

www.stereophile.com

Magnepan MG-20 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

Sidebar 3: Measurements On the face of it, the MG-20 is not very sensitive, 2.83V raising an estimated 80.5dB at 1m (B-weighted). In practice, however, the speaker's line-source radiation pattern will partially compensate for this. (The level of a true line-source speaker doesn't fall off as...

www.stereophile.com

None of these models are considered trivial loads, but also none are hard.

Back to your Klipsch. They also are not extremely difficult to drive, but do have a large negative phase angle at 80Hz and some large swings. The difference is they are rather sensitive, so not likely you will run out of power with any decent amp, unless you need to push them to maximum output, which would be dangerous to hearing in most reasonable sized rooms. And I doubt they cause any decent amp to become unstable, your Denon is better than decent.

You have an awesome AVR. I think it is vanishingly unlikely that the B200 will make an audible difference. If it does, the most likely is it's exceptional noise floor will produce less audible hiss during silent passages. The Klipsch are very sensitive so noise in your electronics can potentially be audible during silent spaces. But the Denon is a good performer, so even that isn't likely a problem.

The Denon will also help if you use the PEQ to tame your room's modal behavior, and even to reduce the treble since they seem slightly hot from the Stereophile measurements.

I hope my observations help.

 

[peng]

I’m not asking about the sonic benefits of the purchase, but rather whether the Denon will output sufficient signal to drive the power amps—specifically, if I set the TOPPING B200 to High Gain (22 dB), it requires only 3.9 Vrms for full power; will that be okay?

Topping's input sensitivity is clearly incorrect, based on calculations and Amir's measurements:
Based on the specified 200 W into 8 ohms, and gain 22.0 dB, it would only need about 3.2 V not 3.95 V. Amir's measurements show to output about 5 W, 8 ohms, output voltage was about 0.36 V, that is consistent with my calculations as well. So don't worry about the 3.9 V input sensitivity, it should be about 3.2 to 3.3 V.

I listen to music (and home cinema) at a maximum volume of 40 on the Denon AVR-8500H's 0–90 scale.

You might have misread the volume scale specs, the AVR-X8500H's volume, in absolute scale should be 1 to 98 and –79 dB to +18 dB), in the relative scale.

he Denon outputs 1.2 V – 2.0 V RMS from the factory. To fully drive the Topping B200 on the High Gain setting, you need an input signal of approximately 1.4 V RMS. I’d appreciate some help confirming if I’ve understood this correctly.

That is incorrect, the pre out voltage range should be from 0 V to a little higher than 4 V. This info has been posted multiple times on forums but unfortunately Denon, Marantz and a few other popular AVR brands are not exactly clear in their published specs in the info sheet and owner's manuals; and you are not the only one interpreted the 1.2 V as maximum output when it isn't. They do provide more info in their service manuals that in some cases you can purchased.

So, you have plenty of headroom to drive the B200 to its rating output and beyond.

Amir occasionally, though rarely measure the pre out pass his standard of 2 V unbalanced, and 4 V balanced, below is one example that shows such AVRs did fine at even above 4 Vrms, 92 dB at 4.4 V, that is better than some dedicated preamps let alone integrated amps.

 

[antcollinet]

More micro-dynamics, a sense of air, and clearer instrument separation.

You won't get those from changing your amplification. Micro dynamics is not a thing (in that it has no clear definition). Air is just an element of frequency response. Instrument separatoin is about soundstage. That comes from the recording, then how your speakers interact with the room.

None of those things are influenced by your amplifier.

As @MAB points out, there could possibly be a noise reduction. But that is only a benefit if you can currently hear hiss from your system. Even if you can, then the only benefit will be a reduction in hiss - that won't make any difference to those characteristics you have listed.

 

[mocenigo]

I own Klipsch Palladium P-39F speakers

95dB/W/m and an impedance that drops to about 2.7-3 ohm at 100-400 Hz and gets quickly above 4ohm. In that lowest point the impedance argument is somewhat limited. But you wont get much power in that region. If you are fine with about 80-100W in that frequency range, which you should be with those speakers, unless your room is HUGE, then go for it.

Do not expect sonic improvements though. At least not unsighted. Unless the DENON has some kinks at certain impedance/frequency point or has a very low damping factor.

 

[Ausghostdog]

Just set up a pair of this today, going through the minidsp flex

 

[Ausghostdog]

and room correction done , ended up at +8 db

 

[MbphotoX]

Crossover components do not matter. Cables do not matter. Biamping does not give you more power. All amplifiers sound the same when not driven to distortion

Bi-amping 101

This article provides a quick look at how bi-amplification works. The conventional scheme is to split the signal into two frequency bands before the power amplifiers that drive the speakers. The bass (LF) amp sees only LF signals and drives only the LF driver (woofer). The treble (HF) amp sees...

www.audiosciencereview.com

not even if you separate the drivers and use an active cross-over, then power the drivers separately?
(I'm aware that typical bi-amping is useless unless the T and M are separate from the Bass driver in the crossover design.. but if they are separate, then having a separate amplifier drive the bass should help if your amplifiers would otherwise run into distortion, no? just spitballing, here..)


edit: just read through that post about bi-amping.. and the author very clearly shows how bi-amping can have a massive impact, more than halfing the power necessary to drive the speakers. which is great if you need to get that bass +6dB louder for it to sound linear at lower levels.

 

[MAB]

not even if you separate the drivers and use an active cross-over, then power the drivers separately?
(I'm aware that typical bi-amping is useless unless the T and M are separate from the Bass driver in the crossover design.. but if they are separate, then having a separate amplifier drive the bass should help if your amplifiers would otherwise run into distortion, no? just spitballing, here..)


edit: just read through that post about bi-amping.. and the author very clearly shows how bi-amping can have a massive impact, more than halfing the power necessary to drive the speakers. which is great if you need to get that bass +6dB louder for it to sound linear at lower levels.

The question was about passive bi-amping using the dual terminals on the back of a speaker with no active crossover. And also about swapping passive crossover components for fancy boutique capacitors.

There is no electrical or sonic benefit of passive bi-amping. More power isn't available.
Fancy crossover capacitors are a good way to waste money.

Agree that active multi-amp systems are different and can have advantages. But that wasn't what was being addressed.

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

The question was about passive bi-amping using the dual terminals on the back of a speaker with no active crossover. And also about swapping passive crossover components for fancy boutique capacitors.

There is no electrical or sonic benefit of passive bi-amping. More power isn't available.
Fancy crossover capacitors are a good way to waste money.

Agree that active multi-amp systems are different and can have advantages. But that wasn't what was being addressed.

You're talking more about stuff like the GR Research speaker/crossover, "upgrade," kits?