Topping B200 Monoblock Amplifier Review

[nathanowl]

Happy to. If someone ships me a PSU, I’ll scope it under load and send you all pics. At the end of the day, it’s a switching supply so it will absolutely have ripple orders of magnitude larger than “chemical reaction noise”.

Rooms have always been the dominating challenge but a whole different story...

You can claim anything really, including that “amps are solved”, but when a new amp with 10dB less noise shows up, people will go crazy for it. Kinda like what happened with the B200 in this thread

 

[Ricardus]

Thanks @amirm.

DAC solved
Amplifier solved
Cables solved

Now only left with speakers, arguably.

Yes! Love it.

 

[Dave TR3A]

Happy to. If someone ships me a PSU, I’ll scope it under load and send you all pics. At the end of the day, it’s a switching supply so it will absolutely have ripple orders of magnitude larger than “chemical reaction noise”.

You made the claim that there would be “a ton of ripple on that included PSU. I bet it's pretty bad. I'd bet you see 50-100mV ripple on there”.

Shouldn’t you either provide the proof or concede the point?

 

[nathanowl]

No. It's speculative. I also offered to measure it. I just need a PSU. Send me one and I'll measure.

 

[Dave TR3A]

No. It's speculative. I also offered to measure it. I just need a PSU. Send me one and I'll measure.

Oh, I see how this is played.

I claim that an Aston Martin is a crummy car that won’t do 120 mph. Send me one and I’ll measure it.

 

[BeeKay]

No. It's speculative. I also offered to measure it. I just need a PSU. Send me one and I'll measure.

The PSU (original spare part) costs like 40ish and change. Just order one to back your claims.

 

[nathanowl]

You guys have seriously lost the plot.
I started this as an ask to forward a product idea to Topping...
... then you, the unwanted peanut gallery, jumped in.

 

[Mort]

I started this as an ask to forward a product idea to Topping...

But you also started with a suspicion.

I'm suspicious about that 240W external supply...

And you doubled down.

I'd bet you a $400 scope and the included probes would show a ton of ripple on that included PSU. I bet it's pretty bad. I'd bet you see 50-100mV ripple on there

You aren't simply asking for a product idea.
You are speculating that an existing one has a problem.
When challenged, you offer nothing and claim you are misunderstood.

 

[BeeKay]

You guys have seriously lost the plot.
I started this as an ask to forward a product idea to Topping...
... then you, the unwanted peanut gallery, jumped in.

If you can’t take some heat upon an idea you keep promoting on a public forum, may I suggest you stay away from the kitchen rather than starting ad hominem insults.
On my ignore list. Get lost.

 

[MAB]

There are plenty of tests already on the impact of battery operated power supplies on otherwise good performing gear. Line conditioners and fancy outboard power supplies too. And the inability of these approaches to make bad gear better. The theory of why these swaps have little or no impact is also discussed in numerous power conditioner and audio accessory tests.

Unpacking this: Join a forum on audio engineering real quick, ask the founder to forward a message to a company he has no ties to, regarding a desire to have a corner case-stack of gear made, for an amp with vanishing noise, using an approach that has been debunked quite a bit on this forum and elsewhere.

 

[Panelhead]

I originally thought you owned a B200 and wanted a different power supply. Have John Yang assign an engineer to design a smart battery power supply to sell to the masses. Did not understand the goal was a future B200 with battery supply.
I built a clone of the ASR Emitter II. Four chassis. Amp in one box, battery supply in another for input and driver stage, and two more with just a transformer for the output stage of each channel.
Had another version with no batteries and all in one chassis. Discrete regs for input and driver stages. Single power transformer.
Think both are up in the attic. Will need new batteries, been 15 years or so. Even gel cells only last so long.
The four chassis contraption did play better to me. Had to.

 

[misterdog]

I'd bet you a $400 scope and the included probes would show a ton of ripple on that included PSU. I bet it's pretty bad. I'd bet you see 50-100mV ripple on there

If the noise from the PSU was as bad as you are suggesting then it would show in the noise measurement of the amp.

<2.3 uVrms at low gain.
Thats including the noise from the Audio Precision analyser !!!!

If less than 2.3 microvolts is still too high for you, do what I did and buy B100 with actual noise of less than 0.3 microvolts on low gain.

See the note on how actual noise is measured, and how the Audio Precision analyser gives a false reading from including it's own self noise.
You think your $400 scope will give more accurate results?

How big a market do you think might exist for a battery PSU with charger that would probably double the cost of these amps.

Whilst probably creating more noise than the included SMPS..

 

[nathanowl]

@misterdog Couple of points:
1) I believe these measurements are from the manufacturer and should always be independently verified. I suspect this was measured here in ASR, but I don't recall...
2) These noise measurements are from the output of the amp, not the PSU itself (my comments pertained to the PSU itself). I agree that the amp output is the thing that ultimately matters.
3) Whenever I see "A weighting" or a weighting in general, it's a bit of a red flag in that they are excluding noise to make the number(s) look better. Yes, people make the argument that "this matches human ears" but its also easy to "hide" noise (such as 50/60Hz in this case) with a "weighted" measurement. A better analytical measurement would not have a weighting on it and then to make sense of the results.
4) My comment on the scope still stands - a cheap scope is more than capable of measuring a switching mode power supply. For the non-trolls who actually want to learn something, here's a youtube video of a 20MHz BW scope making the measurements that I'm talking about (

). Here's another video of a cheap scope making similar measurements as well (

)
5) The size, shape, power output, and cost of the PSU almost certainly means it's a SMPS (switching mode power supply). As much as you may love Topping, they don't/can't defy the laws of physics. There is no free lunch. What SMPS make up for in smaller size, lower cost, and higher efficiency, they pay for with noise, specifically high frequency and ripple. Yes, you can increase the switching frequency higher and higher to take it "out of the audible band", but it's real and there and is worse than a typical toroidal transformer and even more worse than a battery.
6) I'm curious who would want an upgraded PSU - either in a nice box that stacks with the amp and/or a battery. Either configuration could be produced for an additional $50-$100 in cost to a manufacturer. Assuming typical 100% retail markup, I would personally pay $100-$200 for a nicer power supply for it (either aesthetically and/or functionally).
7) As with nearly everything audio and Hi-Fi, the question becomes "Can I hear it? Does it matter? Do I care?". To that, I can't say. But I can say that better is better, and a battery PSU *IS* lower noise than that SMPS. And that could be worth something to some people.

 

[MAB]

1) I believe these measurements are from the manufacturer and should always be independently verified. I suspect this was measured here in ASR, but I don't recall...

Yes, in a thread called Topping B200 Monoblock Amplifier Review. The same thread you are posting your beliefs and hypotheses in. Please read a bit before you post.

No your oscilloscope won't be able to tell you much. It will show you that all power supplies have noise. Not at the level you offer to take a bet on, but noise for sure. Like this internal SMPS:

Or this random laptop power brick:

There are reasons why these residuals don't make it into your audio signal. And reasons why the laptop SMPS doesn't affect the laptop's function, which to be honest is a way bigger deal that our audio gear has to contend with. It has to do with proper design. Yes, junk electronics with specific power supply issues could be improved with a battery. Probably better to fix the design or replace the amp.

While Topping does have reliability issues, they don't have power supply leakage issues. Just look at the measurements in this review. The last thing it needs is a stack of batteries.

 

[Dave TR3A]

@misterdog Couple of points:
1) I believe these measurements are from the manufacturer and should always be independently verified. I suspect this was measured here in ASR, but I don't recall...
2) These noise measurements are from the output of the amp, not the PSU itself (my comments pertained to the PSU itself). I agree that the amp output is the thing that ultimately matters.
3) Whenever I see "A weighting" or a weighting in general, it's a bit of a red flag in that they are excluding noise to make the number(s) look better. Yes, people make the argument that "this matches human ears" but its also easy to "hide" noise (such as 50/60Hz in this case) with a "weighted" measurement. A better analytical measurement would not have a weighting on it and then to make sense of the results.
4) My comment on the scope still stands - a cheap scope is more than capable of measuring a switching mode power supply. For the non-trolls who actually want to learn something, here's a youtube video of a 20MHz BW scope making the measurements that I'm talking about (

). Here's another video of a cheap scope making similar measurements as well (

)
5) The size, shape, power output, and cost of the PSU almost certainly means it's a SMPS (switching mode power supply). As much as you may love Topping, they don't/can't defy the laws of physics. There is no free lunch. What SMPS make up for in smaller size, lower cost, and higher efficiency, they pay for with noise, specifically high frequency and ripple. Yes, you can increase the switching frequency higher and higher to take it "out of the audible band", but it's real and there and is worse than a typical toroidal transformer and even more worse than a battery.
6) I'm curious who would want an upgraded PSU - either in a nice box that stacks with the amp and/or a battery. Either configuration could be produced for an additional $50-$100 in cost to a manufacturer. Assuming typical 100% retail markup, I would personally pay $100-$200 for a nicer power supply for it (either aesthetically and/or functionally).
7) As with nearly everything audio and Hi-Fi, the question becomes "Can I hear it? Does it matter? Do I care?". To that, I can't say. But I can say that better is better, and a battery PSU *IS* lower noise than that SMPS. And that could be worth something to some people.

That’s a lengthy argument for someone who won’t spend $40 on a power supply to prove his point.

 

[fritobugger]

Would going from the RCA pre-outs on a AVR into the B200 using a cable that is RCA to TRS be ok?

 

[misterdog]

That’s a lengthy argument for someone who won’t spend $40 on a power supply to prove his point.

Though it does raise an interesting point.
Looking at Amir's measured results (page 1) the 60 Hz power supply spike dominates the FFT and might give some the impression that a power supply issue exists.

Audio Precision claim that the self noise of the APx555 is less than 1 uVrms, this is obviously represented on this spike coupled to the noise of the B200.
Using Toppings data for the B100 it shows Audio Precision measured noise as <0.7uVrms whereas the actual measured noise, measured in the way that Integrated Circuits are measured, is <0.3uVrms.

So the noise spike is much higher than actually exists.

At the end of the day, it's testimony to the engineering of Topping that their devices are measuring at the limits of available testing equipment costing $ 50,000 plus.

 

[blanc]

Maybe it was mentioned before. Shall B200 be set to Low or High if paired with Pre90?

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

Maybe it was mentioned before. Shall B200 be set to Low or High if paired with Pre90?

I use low.

 

[Bleib]

Maybe it was mentioned before. Shall B200 be set to Low or High if paired with Pre90?

Low