Topping B200 Monoblock Amplifier Review

[mocenigo]

Any gear with very special needs is broken from a practical standpoint in my book.
Agreed, it has other modes that do have gain, still low though from a traditional standpoint.

I think it all depends on what one uses. People should 1) know what they are using and 2) understand how to combine them.
If your preamp can deliver a large voltage swing, why not use a "power follower"? I do not think all components should be universally combinable. In my book some gear is broken if it is very noisy, has high distortion, picks noise easily from EM or the power line, etc...

It shouts "I'm chasing SINAD" from afar.

Well, this was definitely not the case for the MoFo, the F4, or Andrea Ciuffoli's Power Follower

After all the definition of the perfect power amp is "a wire with gain" .

Well, current gain.

And comparisons must be made under the same conditions, covering all traditional sources.

None of the weird designs as the above passed the time test.

I am not sure, the MoFo and the F4 are popular with DIYers.
In the broader consumer-focused world of course they would be less popular because of the need of a preamp with a decent voltage gain.

Even the smart, easy to drive musical-fidelity 750k supercharger (meant to put after a power amp and with an easy 50 Ohm input impedance) remained an obscure concept, even if it worked and measured fairly well.
The later had huge gain though and lots of power to drive anything with no special demands under 2 Ohm or so.

Yeah but it is also a different product. It is like ad additional power amp stage...

 

[Sokel]

I think it all depends on what one uses. People should 1) know what they are using and 2) understand how to combine them.
If your preamp can deliver a large voltage swing, why not use a "power follower"? I do not think all components should be universally combinable. In my book some gear is broken if it is very noisy, has high distortion, picks noise easily from EM or the power line, etc...



Well, this was definitely not the case for the MoFo, the F4, or Andrea Ciuffoli's Power Follower



Well, current gain.



I am not sure, the MoFo and the F4 are popular with DIYers.
In the broader consumer-focused world of course they would be less popular because of the need of a preamp with a decent voltage gain.



Yeah but it is also a different product. It is like ad additional power amp stage...

I guess our niche hobby have niches of its own, perfectly ok with that.

Agreed 100% with your remark, one must know what it gets.
We would probably have less people wondering why they maxed their VC to no avail or why they can't mix 'n' match gear randomly.

The funny thing about the decent pres you mentioned, except from the pro gear and a few new ones (and the SINAD chasing DACs of course) , are all things of the past, most decent old pres easily did 10V and above and with decent gain as well.

And things could be universally combinable, all it would take is preamps like that with all the functions and I/O there is, decent I/O impedance, etc.

But the principle is the same, since there's a chart around here, conditions should be comparable.
Can't compare a generous 27dB gain amp with a -0.1dB gain one at the noise figures for example. That's close to a joke unless the source before them is completely (and I mean completely) noiseless, like if it wasn't of this world.

But yes, it's a hobby, even that is fun, so...

 

[jmdesignz2]

Patiently waiting for the Topping B400 Monoblocks that can drive down to 2 ohms at 800watts and costs $800 each

 

[mocenigo]

IThe funny thing about the decent pres you mentioned, except from the pro gear and a few new ones (and the SINAD chasing DACs of course) , are all things of the past, most decent old pres easily did 10V and above and with decent gain as well.

Yeah, the Pre90 is sort of an outlier today since it can produce a 25V swing on RCA and 50V on XLR.

But the principle is the same, since there's a chart around here, conditions should be comparable.
Can't compare a generous 27dB gain amp with a -0.1dB gain one at the noise figures for example. That's close to a joke unless the source before them is completely (and I mean completely) noiseless, like if it wasn't of this world.

This is what bugs me. Noise for a 0Db gain amp and a 26Db gain amp cannot be compared. If we used N+gain (also not the whole truth, but the other extreme) and then added the THD the SINAD chart would be VERY different and one would see the best Purifi and Hypex modules easily topping Topping (!!!) and possibly also the Benchmark AHB2. There is no doubt that the B100 and B200 are noteworthy feats of engineering, but the work put into Purifi and Hypex is of a different quality altogether — and they are more guaranteed to last.

But yes, it's a hobby, even that is fun, so...

Agree 100% with you. I would draw the conclusion that one can also be manipulated with an objective approach, if one ignores some aspects of the entire picture, but at least it is easier to rectify than a subjective approach…

 

[Sokel]

Yeah, the Pre90 is sort of an outlier today since it can produce a 25V swing on RCA and 50V on XLR.



This is what bugs me. Noise for a 0Db gain amp and a 26Db gain amp cannot be compared. If we used N+gain (also not the whole truth, but the other extreme) and then added the THD the SINAD chart would be VERY different and one would see the best Purifi and Hypex modules easily topping Topping (!!!) and possibly also the Benchmark AHB2. There is no doubt that the B100 and B200 are noteworthy feats of engineering, but the work put into Purifi and Hypex is of a different quality altogether — and they are more guaranteed to last.



Agree 100% with you. I would draw the conclusion that one can also be manipulated with an objective approach, if one ignores some aspects of the entire picture, but at least it is easier to rectify than a subjective approach…

We're lucky to have Amir who takes no prisoners and favors no one, or we could end-up played big time as measurements depend heavily on the operator.
To give you an example look what I can do with my ancient E-MU:



that's its normal noise figures at -50dB level give or take (best I can do with it is about -113dB)


...but now look:



a unreal -134.5dB noise figure, obviously played by me by taking advantage of its strange gain control which seem to knock down everything even if it's not true.
Who would look close enough to see that all it's different is the gain?

Objectivity and measurements is only about the gear, nor the operator neither the people who may have a quick look or depend on others to interpret the results.

 

[misterdog]

The funny thing about the decent pres you mentioned, except from the pro gear and a few new ones (and the SINAD chasing DACs of course) , are all things of the past, most decent old pres easily did 10V and above and with decent gain as well.

Like this one by Topping perhaps? - Pre90.

Another reason I purchased the B100 because I have one.

It's hardly 'special needs' as you call it.

 

[Sokel]

It's hardly 'special needs' as you call it.

I didn't called it "special needs", I called it "very special needs" .
The sole fact that it excludes the main bulk of gear out there is enough.

And a pre with 2 kOhm input impedance at its XLR (10 kOhm at RCA) has special needs of its own.
The universal job of a pre is to mix and match gear and inpedance, no matter the before, no matter the after.
So...

 

[djlotfi]

Hello,
I am interested in a pair of Topping B200 amplifiers. Do you think they can sufficiently drive the B&W 704 S2 speakers? Also, I plan to use my SMSL D400 DAC as a preampl. Do you think I would lose audio quality compared to a dedicated preamp? If so, what dedicated preamp would you recommend?"

 

[SoySalsaPicante]

Hello,
I am interested in a pair of Topping B200 amplifiers. Do you think they can sufficiently drive the B&W 704 S2 speakers? Also, I plan to use my SMSL D400 DAC as a preampl. Do you think I would lose audio quality compared to a dedicated preamp? If so, what dedicated preamp would you recommend?"

Based on rated impedance and sensitivity, the B200s will have absolutely zero difficulty whatsoever driving those.

 

[misterdog]

I didn't called it "special needs", I called it "very special needs" .
The sole fact that it excludes the main bulk of gear out there is enough.

And a pre with 2 kOhm input impedance at its XLR (10 kOhm at RCA) has special needs of its own.
The universal job of a pre is to mix and match gear and inpedance, no matter the before, no matter the after.
So...

Though both Amir and Stereophile seem to disagree with you.

Suspecting some of the good noise figure comes at the expense of lower than normal input impedance, I jacked up the default 40 ohm output impedance of my Audio Precision analyzer to 200 ohm. The result was that the output from the Pre90 dropped down to 3.6 volts (instead of 4). One click on the volume control compensated for that nicely and give me the same good performance just as well:
So there is really no penalty to the lower input impedance.

Topping Pre90 Review (preamplifier)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping Pre90 balanced and unbalanced preamplifier. It was kindly sent to me by the company. The base preamplifier with ability to switch between RCA and XLR inputs costs US $599. There is an extension that gives you four (4) more inputs...

www.audiosciencereview.com

The balanced input impedance was low, at 2k ohms from 20Hz to 20kHz, which might give a bass-light balance with source components that have a tubed output stage. The balanced output impedance was the specified 40 ohms at all audio frequencies, which is usefully low

How many people use DAC's or phono stages with a valve output stage?

Topping Pre90 line preamplifier | Stereophile.com

There has not been a conventional preamplifier in my main audio system for quite a while, because no multichannel preamp is available that's of high enough quality. Instead, I use the high-precision digital volume controls in my players and DACs and choose sources with a relay-based multichannel...

www.stereophile.com

Kal Rubinson who has access to audition and measure more hi-fi components, at any cost, than most will hear in their lifetime ended up buying three Topping Pre 90's for his own system.

The constant need to find fault with Topping products 'chasing SINAD' can come across as less than impartial.
Maybe Topping should be given some credit for advancing sound quality for those who don't have 100K to spend on a sound system.

 

[BeeKay]

The constant need to find fault with Topping products 'chasing SINAD' can come across as less than impartial.

That’s true. Some seem to have this elevated to a personal priority which becomes annoying once it crosses a certain threshold.

 

[Sokel]

Though both Amir and Stereophile seem to disagree with you.

Topping Pre90 Review (preamplifier)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Topping Pre90 balanced and unbalanced preamplifier. It was kindly sent to me by the company. The base preamplifier with ability to switch between RCA and XLR inputs costs US $599. There is an extension that gives you four (4) more inputs...

www.audiosciencereview.com

How many people use DAC's or phono stages with a valve output stage?

Topping Pre90 line preamplifier | Stereophile.com

There has not been a conventional preamplifier in my main audio system for quite a while, because no multichannel preamp is available that's of high enough quality. Instead, I use the high-precision digital volume controls in my players and DACs and choose sources with a relay-based multichannel...

www.stereophile.com

Kal Rubinson who has access to audition and measure more hi-fi components, at any cost, than most will hear in their lifetime ended up buying three Topping Pre 90's for his own system.

The constant need to find fault with Topping products 'chasing SINAD' can come across as less than impartial.
Maybe Topping should be given some credit for advancing sound quality for those who don't have 100K to spend on a sound system.

"Sound quality" as an audible benefit you mean?
The less than impartial me would suggest that you test the "Sound Colors" of your Topping DAC (I'm sure you have one) as on the fly comparison with no such modes.

If you hear something different let me know and then I'll tell you the SINAD of the modes you used.

(hint, the consensus around forums is that they make no difference)

I would suggest to put their efforts at what matters most, take a walk at the DX5 II thread for example to see what I mean.

Mic drop from the less than impartial me

Edit: it comes as no surprise that I disagree with both about the impedance, I'm always at the safe side of stuff about gear, be it impedance, level control, power reserve (I agree with Amir here, you never have too much) , load dependency, proper balanced inputs or safety certifications.

 

[Jimi Floyd]

Devices should have a very low output impedance and a very high input impedance to be the most compatible. Today's technology allows for this without problem. Failure to comply to this rule is plain cheating and it is a potential damage to the user, thus not forgivable in my opinion.

 

[Sokel]

Devices should have a very low output impedance and a very high input impedance to be the most compatible. Today's technology allows for this without problem. Failure to comply to this rule is plain cheating and it is a potential damage to the user, thus not forgivable in my opinion.

The 100 kOhm input impedance of the AP is a great tell.

 

[misterdog]

"Sound quality" as an audible benefit you mean?
The less than impartial me would suggest that you test the "Sound Colors" of your Topping DAC (I'm sure you have one) as on the fly comparison with no such modes.

If you hear something different let me know and then I'll tell you the SINAD of the modes you used.

(hint, the consensus around forums is that they make no difference)

I would suggest to put their efforts at what matters most, take a walk at the DX5 II thread for example to see what I mean.

Mic drop from the less than impartial me

Edit: it comes as no surprise that I disagree with both about the impedance, I'm always at the safe side of stuff about gear, be it impedance, level control, power reserve (I agree with Amir here, you never have too much) , load dependency, proper balanced inputs or safety certifications.

The definition of hi-fi is that you add nothing (as near as) to the recorded signal.

Given that the recorded signal contains includes recorded noise and distortion from the recording process.

Back in the 1950's Peter Walker of Quad, chose to pursue the lowest added noise and distortion by developing the Quad electrostatic loudspeakers.

Or chasing SINAD as some wish to call it.

As Topping now do.

See his papers in Wireless World (1950's) for confirmation.

Which is why I have the Quad 989 ESL's which I have modified to the ultimate lowest distortion transducers possible over the last 10 years.

During that time I have also pursued the lowest possible (additional) noise and distortion with which to feed them.

At a cost affordable to myself, as I don't have 100.000 of money.

Topping have helped provide that goal.

I have also used Hypex,Benchmark,Yamaha and others in this pursuit.


Your philosophy seems somehow different.


Good luck.

 

[Sokel]

Which is why I have the Quad 989 ESL's which I have modified to the ultimate lowest distortion transducers possible over the last 10 years.

This ones?

Quad ESL-989 electrostatic loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

Sidebar 3: Measurements Although the different kind of interaction between a panel speaker and the room can make it sound louder than its measured sensitivity would suggest, the Quad ESL-989 is still on the low side, at an estimated 83dB(B)/2.83V/m. Given its strict 100W power handling, this...

www.stereophile.com

I must admit I like Quads, they are fun and I'm sure that the chart does not do them justice, panels are weird to measure.
Can't find any data about distortion, levels, etc but as I have listened to them myself can't say I heard anything weird even at higher level (no rocking though) .

(funny thing is that the two out of three setups I have listened to them were using tube amps!)

I'll take a look at the papers.

 

[misterdog]

Can't find any data about distortion, levels,

	6
Maximum Output	2 N / m2 at 2m on axis
Sensitivity	1.5 mbar per volt referred to 1m (86dB/2.83V rms equivalent)
Nominal Impedance	8 Ohms
Impedance Variation	4 - 20 Ohms
Maximum Input	Continuous input voltage (rms): 10V Programme Peak for undistorted output: 40V Permitted peak input: 55V
Frequency Response	32Hz - 21kHz (-6dB) 28Hz - 23kHz (useable)
Directivity Index	See Polar Diagrams
Distortion (100dB @ 1m)	Above 1000Hz <0.15% Above 100Hz <0.5% Above 50Hz <1.0%

Imagine being fed from amplifiers the size of a paperback book costing £400 pair and running barely warm as I'm currently (lol) listening to now.

With thunderous bass at 80dB and using 0dB gain from Topping B100 with noise less than 0.3 microvolt.


"very special needs" ?

 

[misterdog]

I must admit I like Quads, they are fun

Accurate is the word, when fed correctly.

If accurate is fun or not is the job of the listener to decide.

Some see fun as loads of distortion.

 

[Meldor]

Hello @amirm

My speakers are 4ohms nominal but dip down to 3.2 (KEF R3 Meta).

Reading you load tests I know that 2ohms are a no go... but was wondering about the 3.2 dip of the worst kind of load.

Thanks!

I too own a pair KEF R3 Meta's and have the same doubts about this combination with Topping B200's. Does anybody have experienced this combination?

 

[misterdog]

Who knew that providing loudspeakers with the lowest noise and distortion would provide the closest to the original recorded sound?

With or without a blindfold on, only 50 years of experience and measured fact from ASR.

Least added.

Currently (sic) listening to Topping B100 into Quad 989 ESL's (fully optimised as per those who know) using 0dB gain.

Noise = < 0.3uV.

Sublime.