Topping B100 Amplifier Review

[Jazigo]

V3 Monos have PFFB circuitry and are essentially non-load-dependent within the audible frequency range. You may be thinking of the original, stereo V3, or perhaps ZA3, neither of which have PFFB.

My bad! Looked over the V3 mono review and didnt catch that both the V3 and the V3 Mono graph was there.

 

[magreen]

Where the V3 mono measures poorly in comparison to the Topping PA5 ii, B100, and 3e audio (A5/A7) is RCA input distortion+noise.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

Did ever, “hear,” the difference between the two?

No difference. Any differences in measurements between the two are inaudible to me.

 

[Panelhead]

Well I can clearly hear a difference between the PA5 II and B100’s.
Do not think it is because of amplifier gain. Running B100’s in Low, attenuating dac at -10 to -20dB usually. The PA5 around -30 to -40dB. Usually dial in listening to a desired level. The attenuator in the AK4499 is high quality.
But crunched some numbers last week. Output power at listening level. Speakers are reworked Klipsch La Scala’s II’s with bottom augmented with sub. A real 105dB@1watt. People use one and two watt tube amplifiers with stock ones. Mine are 2.5dB higher efficiency than stock.
I listen at fairly low levels 70 - 85dB, maybe 90dB peaks on occasion. Cranking to 95dB on peaks almost never. At these levels I doubt I could hear a difference, speaker driver, room, my hearing acuity all are overwhelmed at these sound pressure levels.
But at 70 - 80dB listening level hearing the quality of playback is much easier.
Using the AE TECHRON online converter the amplifiers are outing 3mW at 80dB. At 70dB the power level is 0.3mW.
Even at 95dB the required power is 100mW.
The voltages required are mV levels.
I stand by MY observation that there is a difference. I just have compared the two under different conditions than others.
I think if I hooked up my Klipsch Heresy III’s instead there may be no audible difference. Maybe no measureable difference. They are 95 - 96dB efficient. Hooked them up with PA5 before Christmas. Sounded fine. Output power was in happy place.
,

 

[Julf]

Well I can clearly hear a difference between the PA5 II and B100’s.

If you say so.

Do no think it is because of amplifier gain.

Ok, you don't. But it is still likely.

I stand by MY observation that there is a difference.

Feel free to stand by it, just as we will feel free to dismiss it as unverifiable.

 

[Jazigo]

Well I can clearly hear a difference between the PA5 II and B100’s.
Do no think it is because of amplifier gain. Running B100’s in Low, attenuating dac at -10 to -20dB usually. The PA5 around -30 to -40dB. Usually dial in listening to a desired level. The attenuator in the AK4499 is high quality.
But crunched some numbers last week. Output power at listening level. Speakers are reworked Klipsch La Scala’s II’s with bottom augmented with sub. A real 105dB@1watt. People use one and two watt tube amplifiers with stock ones. Mine are 2.5dB higher efficiency than stock.
I listen at fairly low levels 70 - 85dB, maybe 90dB peaks on occasion. Cranking to 95dB on peaks almost never. At these levels I doubt I could hear a difference, speaker driver, room, my hearing acuity all are overwhelmed at these sound pressure levels.
But at 70 - 80dB listening level hearing the quality of playback is much easier.
Using the AE TECHRON online converter the amplifiers are outing 3mW at 80dB. At 70dB the power level is 0.3mW.
Even at 95dB the required power is 100mW.
The voltages required are mV levels.
I stand by MY observation that there is a difference. I just have compared the two under different conditions than others.
I think if I hooked up my Klipsch Heresy III’s instead there may be no audible difference. Maybe no measureable difference. They are 95 - 96dB efficient. Hooked them up with PA5 before Christmas. Sounded fine. Output power was in happy place.
,

Ok, so here is the thing:

I also run my B100s in Low gain with DAC at -2.5db. That is the perfect level for content mastered with -24dbfs/lufs in my apartment. They are driving a pair of KEF Q1 Meta, which have 86dbspl on 1m.

I have recently played through Prince of Pesia: The Lost Crown again and I swear that there is a difference. Actually one of the games where the difference appears quite obvious to me. But the dynamic-nature of games makes it impossible to for me to capture two of the exact same scenarios to do an A/B test. So since I have failed a test on a Donald Fagen song and I am not able to prove otherwise, I am forced to hold the position that there is no difference until I can prove otherwise.

For the time being, I am just enjoying Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order on my setup. The audio in that game is next level stuff!

 

[KL....]

Well I can clearly hear a difference between the PA5 II and B100’s.
Do no think it is because of amplifier gain. Running B100’s in Low, attenuating dac at -10 to -20dB usually. The PA5 around -30 to -40dB. Usually dial in listening to a desired level. The attenuator in the AK4499 is high quality.
But crunched some numbers last week. Output power at listening level. Speakers are reworked Klipsch La Scala’s II’s with bottom augmented with sub. A real 105dB@1watt. People use one and two watt tube amplifiers with stock ones. Mine are 2.5dB higher efficiency than stock.
I listen at fairly low levels 70 - 85dB, maybe 90dB peaks on occasion. Cranking to 95dB on peaks almost never. At these levels I doubt I could hear a difference, speaker driver, room, my hearing acuity all are overwhelmed at these sound pressure levels.
But at 70 - 80dB listening level hearing the quality of playback is much easier.
Using the AE TECHRON online converter the amplifiers are outing 3mW at 80dB. At 70dB the power level is 0.3mW.
Even at 95dB the required power is 100mW.
The voltages required are mV levels.
I stand by MY observation that there is a difference. I just have compared the two under different conditions than others.
I think if I hooked up my Klipsch Heresy III’s instead there may be no audible difference. Maybe no measureable difference. They are 95 - 96dB efficient. Hooked them up with PA5 before Christmas. Sounded fine. Output power was in happy place.
,

Thank you, @Panelhead, the Klipsch La Scala II will mask any Noise outputed from the PA5 II or B100, won't it, but such low power is required for 70/95db SPL that it would be best to chose the Amp with the least Noise, wouldn't it, as you have done with your choice of the B100. That is, no point to (further) add any Noise to the Klipsch La Scala II, is there? The B100 measures exceptionally low Noise, doesn't it, especially with low gain, so good choice and you enjoy the setup/combination, a bonus. There is just the nagging reliablety issues that are surfaceing, isn't there? enjoy....

Note, and keep in mind, that the Klipsch La Scala II Impedance dips to around 4.23ohms/70Hz and 4.17ohms/335Hz (in some tests). The EPDR can dip below 3ohms with minimums around 2.1ohms/63Hz & 8kHz and 1.9ohms/372Hz. Although at such low Amp power output these do not seem to be issue, for you, but worth noteing.

 

[EJ3]

Thank you, @Panelhead, the Klipsch La Scala’s II will mask any Noise outputed from the PA5 II or B100, won't it, but such low power is required for 70/95db SPL that it would be best to chose the Amp with the least Noise, wouldn't it, as you have done with your choice of the B100. That is, no point to (further) add any Noise to the Klipsch La Scala’s II, is there? The B100 measures exceptionally low Noise, doesn't it, especially with low gain, so good choice and you enjoy the setup/combination, a bonus. There is just the nagging reliablety issues that are surfaceing, isn't there, enjoy....

I had not thought about the level of efficiency. One of my pair of speakers is in the low-mid 90's (I can generate 112 DB in the room with 18 watts a channel) but nothing that is so high in efficiency. So: I don't know...

 

[staticV3]

Well I can clearly hear a difference between the PA5 II and B100’s.

So did this ASR member, until they listened blind and level matched:

frequency-, phase-, distortion (and noise) response enough to determine sound quality?

Hi everyone! So, a chistmas present for me to me was a Topping D50 III and a pair of B100s. This replaces a set of Topping E50 and a PA5. I expected the B100s to be a complete waste of money, so I was prepared to return them after a day of two. However, there seems to be a clear difference...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[MAB]

Thank you, @Panelhead, the Klipsch La Scala’s II will mask any Noise outputed from the PA5 II or B100, won't it, but such low power is required for 70/95db SPL that it would be best to chose the Amp with the least Noise, wouldn't it, as you have done with your choice of the B100. That is, no point to (further) add any Noise to the Klipsch La Scala’s II, is there? The B100 measures exceptionally low Noise, doesn't it, especially with low gain, so good choice and you enjoy the setup/combination, a bonus. There is just the nagging reliablety issues that are surfaceing, isn't there, enjoy....

You can determine noise-audibility by hooking up the amps to a high efficiency speaker, then measure and listen for the noise.

Here is the measured noise of a few amps while hooked up to a JBL D2 compression driver on an M2 lens, measured at the surface of the lens, making sure not to change the mic and lens position between measurements.

The Aiwa is noisy and fairly easy to hear within a meter of the speaker. The Bryston, Marantz, Hypex, and PuriFi all have successively better performance, and need to get my ear within few cm of the lens to hear the noise, and can barely hear the PuriFi no matter how close my ear and how silent the room. The Marantz and Bryston are absolutely acceptable levels of performance, the noise is inaudible beyond 1 meter where it is indistinguishable from the room's background noise when trying to measure. The black trace is a the same measurement but with the speaker terminals grounded (essentially measuring the background of my room through the impedance of the M2 lens ).

The above measurements and observations are with no passive filter. I use a passive 6dB/octave filter resistive pad for this driver which reduces all but the Aiwa to inaudible noise at any distance.

I had intended to measure a Topping PA5 as well, but it broke after just a few days of use due to that amp's systematic unreliability problem with the potted module. It likely would have performed slightly better than the PuriFi, but inaudible with this driver and lens combo. And doubly inaudible with the passive filter I use.

The above noise from a La Scala will be 5-10dB less apparent than with the D2/M2 due to the sensitivity difference. What little I can hear and measure would fade another 5-10 dB into the background of the room (masking).

Low noise and distortion is fun, but not typically audible beyond a certain level of performance.

 

[staticV3]

I have recently played through Prince of Pesia: The Lost Crown again and I swear that there is a difference. Actually one of the games where the difference appears quite obvious to me. But the dynamic-nature of games makes it impossible to for me to capture two of the exact same scenarios to do an A/B test.

Simply record the part with audible differences using Audacity, Nvidia Share, Elgato game capture, or whatever recording solution fits your use case and play the recording back on both Amps

 

[Jazigo]

Simply record the part with audible differences using Audacity, Nvidia Share, Elgato game capture, or whatever recording solution fits your use case and play the recording back on both Amps

My signal chain is a bit wonky: xbox --(hdmi)-> hdmi extractor --(toslink)-> dac -> amp. I could probably buy a toslink-receiver-to-usb and record the audio and then play it back. I will see if we have any of those at work before ordering.

 

[staticV3]

My signal chain is a bit wonky: xbox --(hdmi)-> hdmi extractor --(toslink)-> dac -> amp. I could probably buy a toslink-receiver-to-usb and record the audio and then play it back. I will see if we have any of those at work before ordering.

I'm certain that the Xbox has a function to record gameplay clips, though yeah if you want to avoid compression, then a Toslink to USB adapter is a better choice.

FWIW, a while ago I tested various recording software with my Hifime UR23 and only with USB Audio Recorder Pro was I able to get bit-exact matches in Deltawave. Both Audacity and Adobe Audition introduced errors.

I found that pretty surprising, but have since stuck to UARP for critical applications.

 

[Jazigo]

FWIW, a while ago I tested various recording software with my Hifime UR23 and only with USB Audio Recorder Pro was I able to get bit-exact matches in Deltawave. Both Audacity and Adobe Audition introduced errors.

Thanks for the heads up! I have had on my backlog to measure for bit-perfect playback on my hdmi extractor. That is actually not a given.

 

[antcollinet]

Well I can clearly hear a difference between the PA5 II and B100’s.

I don't doubt that you do. What I contest is the reasons for that perception. It is not in the sound-waves reaching your ears, but is created in the wetware between them. It happens to all of us - all of the time. It is how our brains function.

As you would find out if you did a properly controlled, accurately level matched (with a multimeter to 1%) and most importantly blind comparison.

 

[Panelhead]

Thank you, @Panelhead, the Klipsch La Scala II will mask any Noise outputed from the PA5 II or B100, won't it, but such low power is required for 70/95db SPL that it would be best to chose the Amp with the least Noise, wouldn't it, as you have done with your choice of the B100. That is, no point to (further) add any Noise to the Klipsch La Scala II, is there? The B100 measures exceptionally low Noise, doesn't it, especially with low gain, so good choice and you enjoy the setup/combination, a bonus. There is just the nagging reliablety issues that are surfaceing, isn't there? enjoy....

Note, and keep in mind, that the Klipsch La Scala II Impedance dips to around 4.23ohms/70Hz and 4.17ohms/335Hz (in some tests). The EPDR can dip below 3ohms with minimums around 2.1ohms/63Hz & 8kHz and 1.9ohms/372Hz. Although at such low Amp power output these do not seem to be issue, for you, but worth noteing.

View attachment 501327 View attachment 501328

Thank you for providing the impedance at low to mid frequencies. Two drivers are changed, the woofer is now an Eminence Kappa 15C, The compression driver on top is a B&C DE-120. The padding down for the Atlas PD-5VH is reduced by 2.6dB to bring up to woofer and tweeter at the crossover frequencies.
The four ohm woofer and 16 ohm compression drivers were factory compromise to allow a horn loaded dynamic driver keep up with compression drivers efficiency wise.
This does challenge some amplifiers. Or make a case for biamping. Biamping for when total output could may be a half watt. Before the B100 looked at some of the low distortion/noise headphone amps. None could drive the woofers.
The high phase angles and low impedance maybe where the PA5 II out performs the B100’s. The bass seemed to be really strong using the PA5. Turned off the sub to see if a sub was still needed. It was but combination of PA5 and La Scala’s was closer to not needing than any amplifiers tried.
I usually do not measure. Rigged up a Focusrite Claret and REW for while years ago. Spent way more time measuring than I did listening. Had to quit doing both for several years.

 

[Panelhead]

Depends on listening habits. If lower output levels are normal they would be fine. This amplifier seems to not work well with higher volume output.
Topping recommended the LA90 Discrete when pushing the amplifier. They used 20 watts. Said if pushing 20 watts on a regular basis try another amplifier and not the B100.
Wish other buyers had gotten that advice.
That said, 20 watts should be plenty loud with the Linton’s,

 

[staticV3]

Topping recommended the LA90 Discrete when pushing the amplifier. They used 20 watts. Said if pushing 20 watts on a regular basis try another amplifier and not the B100.

Where was that?

 

[Bluedog]

я только что посмотрел на фотографию, где стоит устройство SMSL и два Topping в стопке. Это что, тепловизор сбоку?

120mm computer fan on a power bank . powered via USB-9V adapter

 

[ppataki]

120mm computer fan on a power bank

I do the same, I have two 140mm Noctua fans in my Ikea Besta, controlled by my PC