Topping B100 Amplifier Review

[Julf]

The moment it starts to develop into a challenge these tests tend to fail

In the same sense as the James Randi One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge where all claimed paranormal effects failed to show up in a public challenge?

 

[capslock]

I noticed in the Topping shop (https://shenzhenaudio.com/products/...5d8r89rrFmVoY_16pgkENLterw29LG4FPSLqmMV0pY6yE), there is a comment that says:

Is this a common defect?

Amir tested power output of many frequencies, but those are single tones. How about max power with white/pink nose?

Unfortunately yes. I am aware of more than half a dozen users who have experienced intermittent shutdowns at moderate listening levels with mainstream speakers like LS50, which is not super-insensitive. I am aware of fewer who have written their amps play just fine. I am also aware of three users who had one amp go into permanent protection after one such "gentle" shutdown.

 

[FERCSA]

Perhaps it was just he lack of PFFB in my Fosi V3 (Stereo) which results in a significantly more realistic frequency response of the B100 Monos which made the largest differences….

Don't forget to add crosstalk to the mix with these monoblocks it's basically non-exist. Maybe it explain my first impression on page 61.

Unfortunately yes. I am aware of more than half a dozen users who have experiences intermittent shutdowns at moderate listening levels with mainstream speakers like LS50, which is not super-insensitive. I am aware of fewer who have written their amps play just fine. I am also aware of three users who had one amp go into permanent protection after one such "gentle" shutdown.

That review is around the time when pma discovered the unusual balanced input stage and started marking this amp as "5 Watt amplifier".

In my case I'm using them in low gain setting with pro audio gear and the maximum input is around 6.9V not the usual 4 or 5V. I guess this way I'm not pushing it as hard as others. After all you guys will know if one of them is gone I'll dissect it for pieces..

Until then here is some internal photos I took the other day.

 

[audio_tony]

Until then here is some internal photos I took the other day.

This one doesn't have the little additional PCB inline with the power socket.

 

[capslock]

The v3.7 of the PCB caught my eye. I wonder how many of those were never relaeased and how many revision there are out with customers. Maybe there is hope yet that the kinks will be ironed out.

@FERCSA In case I ever buy those again, could you post how to disassemble without cosmetic damage?

 

[FERCSA]

This one doesn't have the little additional PCB inline with the power socket.

That was a very early build I think because I only saw that version on promo photos. Looks like they integrated the mosfet next to the caps under the psu socket.

One other interesting thing is two of my amps has different white led than the others so probably these are from different batch.

In case I ever buy those again, could you post how to disassemble without cosmetic damage?

Just remove all of the screws then slide it out with the speaker terminals.

 

[miero]

Is there something under the bottom "heatsink" that connects the PCB to the case, or it is there just for a complicated heat transfer from those eight SOT669 chips on the upper side?

 

[FERCSA]

Is there something under the bottom "heatsink" that connects the PCB to the case, or it is there just for a complicated heat transfer from those eight SOT669 chips on the other side?

Nothing. It's there for mechanical support and heat transfer.

 

[totti1965]

I went through the same change. First impression was the stereo soundstage or 3D imaging got wider. Is it halu? maybe or maybe not.. let me know what's your first impression

Everything fine, even at day 4. Perhaps the B100 Monos will last. I found, that the biggest difference is "Separation" between the instruments. And a very realistic Aura. So it sounds more like reality, than normal Hifi Stuff like the Fosi V3 which sounds a bit more "messy".



Interesting yesterday: The WiiM Pro Plus, driven with his own analog out and RCA Cinch into the B100 sounds better, simply more natural in my ear, than the WiiM Pro Plus digital out and then the SMSL D6s connected with XLR!!!
Perhaps just Imagination. But AFTER my listening session I read about the Chips. The WiiM uses AKM 4493 something chips. The SMSL has ESS 9038 or so chips. Perhaps there is something with these chips?
Also I found out that between the Tidal Tracks there was a very very quiet click when using the SMSLD6s, but using ONLY the WiiM everything was perfect.

Roon user, a bit of equalisation, minus 6 dB, 4000 ms was my waiting Latency with my roon settings when Sample Frequencay Switches, because I wanted to give the devices every time of the world it needs to Sync for highest possible Quiality (I know its audiophile BS, but I am a bit supersticious...!) I ad 1000 ms Waiting latency in the programming of the Digital Out of the WiiM. Perhaps that made confusion between the gear.

Perhaps it is just something with the Clocks and the communication between the WiiM and the SMSL?

If one of my friends remarks something as "The WiiM is very good for its price" I now answer: "You´re talking absolute Bullshit, it is not good for its price, its overwhelmingly good compared to ANY expensive components!!! It´s ultra Classy in an absolute way!!!"
So I believe (and I know it sounds a bit schizophrenic (!)) that
a) sometimes 113.5 dB SINAD can sound better than 121.5 dB.
and
b) I believe not every transparent DAC sounds exactly the same (which is a Subjectivist statement, I know....).
But
c) I also guess, that there are many cases when a US$ 300 DAC / Streamer / Whatever can sound simply better than the one or other US$ 30,000 Component.


thw

 

[Julf]

Everything fine, even at day 4. Perhaps the B100 Monos will last. I found, that the biggest difference is "Separation" between the instruments. And a very realistic Aura. So it sounds more like reality, than normal Hifi Stuff like the Fosi V3 which sounds a bit more "messy".



Interesting yesterday: The WiiM Pro Plus, driven with his own analog out and RCA Cinch into the B100 sounds better, simply more natural in my ear, than the WiiM Pro Plus digital out and then the SMSL D6s connected with XLR!!!
Perhaps just Imagination. But AFTER my listening session I read about the Chips. The WiiM uses AKM 4493 something chips. The SMSL has ESS 9038 or so chips. Perhaps there is something with these chips?
Also I found out that between the Tidal Tracks there was a very very quiet click when using the SMSLD6s, but using ONLY the WiiM everything was perfect.

Roon user, a bit of equalisation, minus 6 dB, 4000 ms was my waiting Latency with my roon settings when Sample Frequencay Switches, because I wanted to give the devices every time of the world it needs to Sync for highest possible Quiality (I know its audiophile BS, but I am a bit supersticious...!) I ad 1000 ms Waiting latency in the programming of the Digital Out of the WiiM. Perhaps that made confusion between the gear.

Perhaps it is just something with the Clocks and the communication between the WiiM and the SMSL?

If one of my friends remarks something as "The WiiM is very good for its price" I now answer: "You´re talking absolute Bullshit, it is not good for its price, its overwhelmingly good compared to ANY expensive components!!! It´s ultra Classy in an absolute way!!!"
So I believe (and I know it sounds a bit schizophrenic (!)) that
a) sometimes 113.5 dB SINAD can sound better than 121.5 dB.
and
b) I believe not every transparent DAC sounds exactly the same (which is a Subjectivist statement, I know....).
But
c) I also guess, that there are many cases when a US$ 300 DAC / Streamer / Whatever can sound simply better than the one or other US$ 30,000 Component.


thw

There are thousands of audiophile forums for this kind of stuff. There are very few science-based ones, so can we try to preserve this forum?

 

[capslock]

Everything fine, even at day 4. Perhaps the B100 Monos will last. I found, that the biggest difference is "Separation" between the instruments. And a very realistic Aura. So it sounds more like reality, than normal Hifi Stuff like the Fosi V3 which sounds a bit more "messy".



Interesting yesterday: The WiiM Pro Plus, driven with his own analog out and RCA Cinch into the B100 sounds better, simply more natural in my ear, than the WiiM Pro Plus digital out and then the SMSL D6s connected with XLR!!!
Perhaps just Imagination. But AFTER my listening session I read about the Chips. The WiiM uses AKM 4493 something chips. The SMSL has ESS 9038 or so chips. Perhaps there is something with these chips?
Also I found out that between the Tidal Tracks there was a very very quiet click when using the SMSLD6s, but using ONLY the WiiM everything was perfect.

Roon user, a bit of equalisation, minus 6 dB, 4000 ms was my waiting Latency with my roon settings when Sample Frequencay Switches, because I wanted to give the devices every time of the world it needs to Sync for highest possible Quiality (I know its audiophile BS, but I am a bit supersticious...!) I ad 1000 ms Waiting latency in the programming of the Digital Out of the WiiM. Perhaps that made confusion between the gear.

Perhaps it is just something with the Clocks and the communication between the WiiM and the SMSL?

If one of my friends remarks something as "The WiiM is very good for its price" I now answer: "You´re talking absolute Bullshit, it is not good for its price, its overwhelmingly good compared to ANY expensive components!!! It´s ultra Classy in an absolute way!!!"
So I believe (and I know it sounds a bit schizophrenic (!)) that
a) sometimes 113.5 dB SINAD can sound better than 121.5 dB.
and
b) I believe not every transparent DAC sounds exactly the same (which is a Subjectivist statement, I know....).
But
c) I also guess, that there are many cases when a US$ 300 DAC / Streamer / Whatever can sound simply better than the one or other US$ 30,000 Component.


thw

The AKM DACs are generally very linear at up to - 10 dB full scale. The ESS DACs tend to do funny stuff in the range of -10 to -40 dB (ESS hump), which might be particularly relevant if you use digital volume control. However, the D6s uses the ES9039Q2M that is free of this hump.

 

[Guddu]

From Amir's review/measurements:
EDIT 2: Power Consumption
Standby power consumption is around 1.5 watt. Powered on but not playing, 9.1 watt.

This is just like TPA3255's idle power consumption.
Does it mean it has similar efficiency?

 

[antcollinet]

The ESS DACs tend to do funny stuff in the range of -10 to -40 dB (ESS hump),

Have we seen measurements of the two devices that indicate this difference might reach audible levels? I think not - in fact the SMSL IMD measurement doesn't show any indication of IMD hump at all.

furthermore the two IMD charts for the devices look close to identical.

I'm gonna suggest that any sound quality differences @totti1965 is perceiving are in the range of textbook perceptive bias. Except perhaps for the inter track clicks which may be poor handling of sample rate changes, or other switching transient activity between tracks.

 

[totti1965]

Have we seen measurements of the two devices that indicate this difference might reach audible levels? I think not - in fact the SMSL IMD measurement doesn't show any indication of IMD hump at all.

furthermore the two IMD charts for the devices look close to identical.

I'm gonna suggest that any sound quality differences @totti1965 is perceiving are in the range of textbook perceptive bias. Except perhaps for the inter track clicks which may be poor handling of sample rate changes, or other switching transient activity between tracks.

View attachment 419663View attachment 419664

But can the tiny inter track clicks (which are an objective fact) be a sign, that something is wrong with clock sync / Jitter too, which leads to the tiny differences in perception during the tracks themselves?

 

[Julf]

But can the tiny inter track clicks (which are an objective fact) be a sign, that something is wrong with clock sync / Jitter too, which leads to the tiny differences in perception during the tracks themselves?

Everything *can*. Even cows can fly under the right circumstances, but intertrack clicks are just that - clicks *between* tracks, caused by sample rate changes or refilling of buffer between tracks.

 

[EddNog]

But can the tiny inter track clicks (which are an objective fact) be a sign, that something is wrong with clock sync / Jitter too, which leads to the tiny differences in perception during the tracks themselves?

What is your source/streamer? The WiiM streamers have multiple software adjustments/settings that can mitigate or even eliminate clicks & pops between tracks when changing sample rates.

Also, I found that if any sort of converting (single ended to/from balanced) or splitting cables can sometimes cause these things to show up, especially RCA.

-Ed

 

[capslock]

Have we seen measurements of the two devices that indicate this difference might reach audible levels? I think not - in fact the SMSL IMD measurement doesn't show any indication of IMD hump at all.

furthermore the two IMD charts for the devices look close to identical.

I'm gonna suggest that any sound quality differences @totti1965 is perceiving are in the range of textbook perceptive bias. Except perhaps for the inter track clicks which may be poor handling of sample rate changes, or other switching transient activity between tracks.

View attachment 419663View attachment 419664

I'm fully with you, there there is no significant difference between these DACs. I would have understood totti's findings if the DAC had been ES9038-based and with a poorly mitigated hump.

As for measurements on other DACs (the Khadas has ES9038 and a particularly pronounced hump):

Measurements: "ESS Hump" revisited (Khadas Tone Board V1.3)

Part 1 : Introduction By now, we all know what the infamous "ESS Hump" looks like in the typical IMD vs. Level plot, as shown for example in Amir's original review of the WesionTEK Khadas Tone Board DAC (KTB). But it does also show up in simple THD+N vs. Level plots. The DAC chip used is a...

www.audiosciencereview.com

These show quite clearly that the hump is not only an IMD hump but also very much a THD hump. If you use digital volume control, it is likely that you will be sitting right in the middle of the hump.

 

[antcollinet]

But can the tiny inter track clicks (which are an objective fact) be a sign, that something is wrong with clock sync / Jitter too, which leads to the tiny differences in perception during the tracks themselves?

No - the measurements show there are no audible differences between the devices. Both measure as audibly transparent while outputting sound.

These show quite clearly that the hump is not only an IMD hump but also very much a THD hump. If you use digital volume control, it is likely that you will be sitting right in the middle of the hump.

Even with that I'd very much doubt the difference would be audible with music.

 

[EddNog]

Replacement B100 came in, a brand new unit. Hooked it all up, everything sounds fine including the remaining amp on the other channel, so that one does not seem to have suffered any ill effects from the event that killed the one other channel.

-Ed

 

[Jukka]

Still thinking. The manual says that output is BTL.
View attachment 409735
And my test circuit scheme is in my review https://pmacura.cz/FCT/topping_b100.htm (floating differential input of ADC, but the amp is driven from RCA==>XLR 3-wire cable. The setup I use to measure Hypex and Purifi).

If the +in and -in of the XLR drive the amplifier halves directly, then I could get only 1/4 output power in my setup. If the balanced input is not a common balanced input, but drives two halves directly and separately, then it is possible. Still a mystery. Let’s see what @miero gets from Topping.

View attachment 409739

So it amplifies each XLR input relative to ground. Does this also mean that the amplifier can close itself (break) down more easily if there is much external interference onto to signal cable? I'm not sure how low the threshold is, but in theory that can happen immediately when you turn it on, especially if there is no cable connected?