Topping B100 Amplifier Review

[terryforsythe]

I was referencing patent invalidation of something that will not function as specified.

The correct avenue to invalidate a patent on that ground is litigation in the court system, not reexamination.

EDIT: We have highjacked this thread enough. If you wish to discuss further shoot me a PM.

 

[pablolie]

Yes, with regard to 35 USC 102 (novelty) and 35 USC 103 (obviousness). However, 35 USC 112 (enablement, written description, etc.) only is considered "with respect to subject matter added or deleted in the reexamination proceeding".

This is not a direct answer to your post, but rather just a note on patents in tech.

In large tech companies, we often have filed patents as a team. So that shields you some from getting involved in the constant patent lawsuits tech companies' lawyer teams get involved in.

But I also filed two patents by myself in the late 90s in an area that became very contested, namely Voice-over-IP. I wish I never had. For 10 years after, I was constantly dragged into patent lawsuits between companies, a distracting exercise I utterly hated each and every time, especially because those patents made me exactly $10k (combined together) per company policy (the company owns them, not me, since you sign intellectual property off to your company in standard employment contracts here in Silicon Valley as an engineer). I ended up regretting (a) having the idea and (b) filing those with the help of the company's patent lawyers. The reward never ever compensated me for the constant fallout that ensued. Especially since it kind of takes 5 years or so for patents to really get rock solid in the US patent office, and by then you're totally working on something else.

 

[shuppatsu]

It is unfair to keep complaining about these areas without any facts. You are welcome to wait until more data comes in on its reliability but not keep sewing doubt about it just because.

Waxx didn't say anything about reliability. Support and to a lesser extent repairability can be inferred from how previous defective products were handled (not well!).

It's a brand-new product using a novel design so reliability is a question mark. So what does Consumer Reports say about new car models? They say be careful because reliability is not known, and buy from a manufacture with a proven track record for reliability.

 

[Deleted member 72219]

Waxx didn't say anything about reliability. Support and to a lesser extent repairability can be inferred from how previous defective products were handled (not well!).

It's a brand-new product using a novel design so reliability is a question mark. So what does Consumer Reports say about new car models? They say be careful because reliability is not known, and buy from a manufacture with a proven track record for reliability.

Given the technology is a rehash from A70 Pro, do we have any known issues for that amp?

-Ed

 

[Timcognito]

The correct avenue to invalidate a patent on that ground is litigation in the court system, not reexamination.

EDIT: We have highjacked this thread enough. If you wish to discuss further shoot me a PM.

Yes, will not bug you. PEACE, OUT. On to Class B

 

[shuppatsu]

Given the technology is a rehash from A70 Pro, do we have any known issues for that amp?

-Ed

If the last few pages of the A70 review thread is anything to go by, the answer is yes.

Topping A70 Pro HP & Preamp Review

Can you go back to the last firmware, 2.02?

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Deleted member 72219]

If the last few pages of the A70 review thread is anything to go by, the answer is yes.

Topping A70 Pro HP & Preamp Review

Can you go back to the last firmware, 2.02?

www.audiosciencereview.com

Then I guess time will tell. So far, after a week of listening, not a single issue (yet) for me with this pair of B100s.

-Ed

 

[pablolie]

Then I guess time will tell. So far, after a week of listening, not a single issue (yet) for me with this pair of B100s.

-Ed

Based on the measurements, most certainly no one should expect any issues. The power "limitation" clearly shows where this performs without a match in its single minded function.

I think on ASR some participants confuse the recommendation with universal applicability, and don't extrapolate the measurements enough into their own needs/preferences. And the true power of this site is the latter. Amir goes through a lot of trouble to give us that data, and it's up to the rest of us to apply it to our own needs.

 

[Deleted member 72219]

Based on the measurements, most certainly no one should expect any issues. The power "limitation" clearly shows where this performs without a match in its single minded function.

I think on ASR some participants confuse the recommendation with universal applicability, and don't extrapolate the measurements enough into their own needs/preferences. And the true power of this site is the latter.

The issues that we speak of are not performance issues but reliability issues. I can’t speak to having much experience with Topping products, but so far, absolute 100% reliability for me with the stuff I own from them (two B100s and an E70 Velvet, with an L70 on its way already).

-Ed

 

[amirm]

with 30 / 40 year of hifi experience with the photo of inside pcb , maker , component , motherboard we see if just , above or under street price and reliability

I have more experience than that and I can't make a determination regarding reliability. The protection is microprocessor controlled. How on earth do you know what it is doing and how effective it is? Wet thumb in the air?

 

[amirm]

Waxx didn't say anything about reliability.

Repairability implicitly means something breaking. If it doesn't break, what worry is there about repair?

A ton of gear is sold that is not worth the hassle to repair. A Sony AVR I bought broke under my testing. It wasn't worth the hassle the get warranty repair on the thing.

 

[Waxx]

Repairability implicitly means something breaking. If it doesn't break, what worry is there about repair?

A ton of gear is sold that is not worth the hassle to repair. A Sony AVR I bought broke under my testing. It wasn't worth the hassle the get warranty repair on the thing.

It's the combination of waranty support and repairablity that is lacking, if both lacking you're on your own and it's even not legal to import in the EU. Topping (and they are not the only one) has both not.

My laptop is Lenovo, also Chinese, also not repairable, but when it breaks down it's supported (a friend had it, and in a week he had a new one within waranty). Then unrepairablity is not an issue from consumer point of view (ecology is another thing, but that is a political discussion we don't do here).

If Topping fix one of those issues, the problem is solved. But untill now, it's grey import with little to no support from the company. That is also why the mainstream is neglecting them and you won't find them in shops down here.

 

[Roland68]

Given the technology is a rehash from A70 Pro, do we have any known issues for that amp?

-Ed

If the last few pages of the A70 review thread is anything to go by, the answer is yes.

Topping A70 Pro HP & Preamp Review

Can you go back to the last firmware, 2.02?

www.audiosciencereview.com

To what extent should the technology of the B100 be a new version of the A70 Pro?

The reliability problems of the A70 Pro cannot be transferred to the B100, as the B100 does not have any modules cast with casting compound. Many of the components are not even present in the B100, such as the volume control.
Apart from the few devices where Topping has used these modules cast with potting compound, I am not aware that Topping devices have a high failure rate.

 

[DanielT]

That's the distortion at the rated power of 120W into 4 ohms. Some manufacturers use 0.1% THD, some use 0.5% THD, some use 1% THD, and some use whatever other value to determine the power rating in the spec sheet. It's arbitrary, really, and where they choose the cut off really has no bearing on whether the amp is "low distortion" in general.

Not that I buy that avoiding negative feedback results in low distortion. Those blurbs in the manual are certainly written by the marketing department.

Although I think both this and the whole discussion about patents and whatnot are getting rather off-topic for a review thread.

Sorry, I missed that. A comment about it, even though it's OT.That didn't say very much. It would have been better to show power at 1% distortion plus distortion at half that power level. Best, of course, are independent and more extensive tests like the ones Amir does.

In any case, to what the thread should be about. Topping B100, for those who want a load independent amplifier with super low distortion with the power it produces. Then it is a jewel.

 

[shuppatsu]

Repairability implicitly means something breaking. If it doesn't break, what worry is there about repair?

A certain number of amps break. Given that it's a new product from a company that has had several high-failure amps, repairability and serviceability make a risky proposition less so. This is not to automatically assume that it will be unreliable.

 

[shuppatsu]

amps that measure "well enough", which I'd define as load-independent with a SINAD of 90ish+ and good characteristics at lower volumes.

Topping B100, for those who want a load independent amplifier with super low distortion with the power it produces.

Question about load dependency: it seems like if you're doing room correction load dependency isn't an issue at all, since you're measuring the output and adjusting accordingly. But I'm really ignorant about issues with "nominal" impedance. If a speaker's impedance is all over the place, will you get different effects from load dependency depending on what other tones are being played at the same time? Or is it something you could EQ out perfectly?

 

[Sokel]

This is a hobby,right?
And for good or bad the ones we are in it for some time have been spoiled by the "client is the king" mentality that traditionally came with it.
It's hard to chance habits instantly,it's hard to accept that change in status quo that brings it down to a normal (or less than normal) every day purchase.

It's not only the support,or repair centers,or...,it's the mentality that since the price is low byers have to deal with all kinds of shortcomings.
Nope.Some of us will never accept that since it's not a need,it's a hobby.And part of this hobby was always the feeling I described,no matter how absurd that is.

 

[Roland68]

A certain number of amps break. Given that it's a new product from a company that has had several high-failure amps, repairability and serviceability make a risky proposition less so. This is not to automatically assume that it will be unreliable.

The fact that these Topping amplifiers failed, such as the PA5, was not due to development, build quality or component quality, but to Topping's stupid idea of hiding certain circuits by encapsulating the modules with potting compound. This led to the failure.
If the potting compound is removed, these amplifiers work perfectly again and without further failure. The rumor that these amplifiers failed because they got too hot is also just an old wives' tale. None of the PA5s I repaired had to have a component on the module replaced.

The irony is, and it's funny, that all of these hidden circuits became public as a result of the failures.
At least they didn't spoil the module on the B100 with the casting compound, but simply turned it over.
A small step in the right direction.

 

[amirm]

It's the combination of waranty support and repairablity that is lacking, if both lacking you're on your own and it's even not legal to import in the EU.

Who says it is illegal to sell in you EU? you are just making stuff up. On support/warranty, you can buy through retailers that do provide support such as Audiophonics. They provide 15 day return privilege which deals with any infant mortality.

 

[amirm]

A certain number of amps break. Given that it's a new product from a company that has had several high-failure amps, repairability and serviceability make a risky proposition less so. This is not to automatically assume that it will be unreliable.

Once more, you can't draw such conclusions arbitrarily. This is a new amplifier.

But yes, amplifiers fail more than any other audio component. This is just a fact of life.