Topping B100 Amplifier Review

[testp]

I don't know how to interpret the numbers. I understand the why from Gemini but none of the responses talk about gain settings. On the whole Gemini says that XLR cables provide no benefit over RCA in terms of audio quality (that's very broad-brush but I'm summarising) but that contradicts the statement by Amir in the original post plus posts above. So an LLM isn't going to help me. I was hoping that someone in this forum would be able to provide an answer but it's possible that people don't want to stick their neck out and say something that other people will shoot down as completely wrong?

well audio quality consist of noise rejection as well, so if your system is extremely noisy, if your signal from digital-to-absolute-end-of-analog (amplifier binding post) is balanced, that noise is rejected thanks to xlr. -> So in that point: xlr is better to rca. + xlr guarantees noise rejection for long runs of signal cable.

if your system is already non-noisy, xlr in general should not have a benefit.

but second: look at the high gain versions of xlr-vs-rca for b100 (sinad): there is definetely benefit to have xlr. -> now whether you would hear that, is another question, because humans threshold (in ideal conditions) of sound differences is about -115db, so sinad around this number would give you already the best what you can hear in ideal environment no matter if it's xlr-or-rca.

but third: someone (don't know myself) mentioned above that b100 signal is dual amplified -> in theory rca should give the same output watts, but it has to be in higher gain so with xlr you can achive the max. power of this amplifier in lower gain (xlr) vs. rca -> hence getting better sinad.

and fourth: someone here already was using wiim streamer with b100 (low gain), but had the wiim streamer output limited to ~1.0 volt, and the amplifier wasn't getting loud and i think was clipping (not sure from memory) -> solution was to feed the amp 2 volts. -> this was rca route, so that is okey as well.

to sum up: xlr is essentialyy noise rejection. if your happy with your system (it sounds clean not noisy), you are using b100 at medium gain AND get loud levels without the amp clipping and not shutting down, your good !

i myself have Wiim ultra (only rca), and am planning on getting hypex that has both (xlr/rca input), i probl. will use the semi-xlr method cable, but in theory both xlr/rca will give me the 'sound pureness' im after i guess (i just can't measure it), so for piece of mind: semi-xlr will reject noise enough and i'm fine with that.

 

[C0mbat]

well audio quality consist of noise rejection as well, so if your system is extremely noisy, if your signal from digital-to-absolute-end-of-analog (amplifier binding post) is balanced, that noise is rejected thanks to xlr. -> So in that point: xlr is better to rca. + xlr guarantees noise rejection for long runs of signal cable.

if your system is already non-noisy, xlr in general should not have a benefit.

but second: look at the high gain versions of xlr-vs-rca for b100 (sinad): there is definetely benefit to have xlr. -> now whether you would hear that, is another question, because humans threshold (in ideal conditions) of sound differences is about -115db, so sinad around this number would give you already the best what you can hear in ideal environment no matter if it's xlr-or-rca.

but third: someone (don't know myself) mentioned above that b100 signal is dual amplified -> in theory rca should give the same output watts, but it has to be in higher gain so with xlr you can achive the max. power of this amplifier in lower gain (xlr) vs. rca -> hence getting better sinad.

and fourth: someone here already was using wiim streamer with b100 (low gain), but had the wiim streamer output limited to ~1.0 volt, and the amplifier wasn't getting loud and i think was clipping (not sure from memory) -> solution was to feed the amp 2 volts. -> this was rca route, so that is okey as well.

to sum up: xlr is noise rejection, if your happy with your system, its sounds clean, you are using b100 at medium gain AND get loud levels without the amp clipping and not shutting down, your good !

i myself have wiim ultra (only rca), and am planning on getting hypex that has both (xlr/rca input), i probl. will use the semi-xlr method cable, but in theory both will give me the 'sound pureness' im after i guess (i just can't measure it), so for piece of mind: semi-xlr will reject noise enough and i'm fine with that.

Amazing, thanks for taking the time to explain. I really appreciate it.

Is there a way I can tell if my cables are introducing noise? It's worth noting that my RCA cables are only 0.5m long. As far as I can tell there's no noise but I might not be listening correctly.

I've also never heard clipping or had the B100s shut down. I listen at fairly low levels as it's a small room plus I have an active sub that handles everything below 85hz.

 

[testp]

Amazing, thanks for taking the time to explain. I really appreciate it.

Is there a way I can tell if my cables are introducing noise? It's worth noting that my RCA cables are only 0.5m long. As far as I can tell there's no noise but I might not be listening correctly.

I've also never heard clipping or had the B100s shut down. I listen at fairly low levels as it's a small room plus I have an active sub that handles everything below 85hz.

no, i think your good. im not sure how exactly are the noise tests, but i would do it in 2 ways:

(1) don't play any signal, just increase the volume to your ~max listening levels + a little.

(2) play a recording that you know to have absolutely NO signal/tones (you can make it yourself in software's), but is still a recording, and do the same for this.

for both tests, put your ear near the speakers, usually tweeters. but that might be overkill, just listen around 1-2 meters of the speakers in a quiet room, do you hear static/noise when no actual sound/notes are coming from the speakers.

just be careful -> to not have any sound notes playing at these tests.

 

[Roland68]

well audio quality consist of noise rejection as well, so if your system is extremely noisy, if your signal from digital-to-absolute-end-of-analog (amplifier binding post) is balanced, that noise is rejected thanks to xlr. -> So in that point: xlr is better to rca. + xlr guarantees noise rejection for long runs of signal cable.

if your system is already non-noisy, xlr in general should not have a benefit.

but second: look at the high gain versions of xlr-vs-rca for b100 (sinad): there is definetely benefit to have xlr. -> now whether you would hear that, is another question, because humans threshold (in ideal conditions) of sound differences is about -115db, so sinad around this number would give you already the best what you can hear in ideal environment no matter if it's xlr-or-rca.

but third: someone (don't know myself) mentioned above that b100 signal is dual amplified -> in theory rca should give the same output watts, but it has to be in higher gain so with xlr you can achive the max. power of this amplifier in lower gain (xlr) vs. rca -> hence getting better sinad.

and fourth: someone here already was using wiim streamer with b100 (low gain), but had the wiim streamer output limited to ~1.0 volt, and the amplifier wasn't getting loud and i think was clipping (not sure from memory) -> solution was to feed the amp 2 volts. -> this was rca route, so that is okey as well.

to sum up: xlr is essentialyy noise rejection. if your happy with your system (it sounds clean not noisy), you are using b100 at medium gain AND get loud levels without the amp clipping and not shutting down, your good !

i myself have Wiim ultra (only rca), and am planning on getting hypex that has both (xlr/rca input), i probl. will use the semi-xlr method cable, but in theory both xlr/rca will give me the 'sound pureness' im after i guess (i just can't measure it), so for piece of mind: semi-xlr will reject noise enough and i'm fine with that.

Amazing, thanks for taking the time to explain. I really appreciate it.

Is there a way I can tell if my cables are introducing noise? It's worth noting that my RCA cables are only 0.5m long. As far as I can tell there's no noise but I might not be listening correctly.

I've also never heard clipping or had the B100s shut down. I listen at fairly low levels as it's a small room plus I have an active sub that handles everything below 85hz.

That's not entirely correct, or at least misleading.
A balanced analog connection only prevents or eliminates interference entering the cable. XLR therefore has an advantage over longer cables.
The noise inherent in the devices themselves remains; XLR cabling doesn't change that.

With shorter RCA cables, there's usually no difference, although it's worth noting that the measured values of the XLR inputs/outputs can be better on many devices.

With digital cables, jitter is more of a concern, but even then, a balanced digital cable is only necessary over longer distances.
For shorter distances, an optical Toslink connection can be advantageous because it provides galvanic isolation between the devices.

 

[staticV3]

@C0mbat the B100's two differential amplifier channels are always active regardless of whether you're feeding it via XLR or RCA.

Otherwise, output level with SE would be half of output level via Bal, and that's not the case:


What's likely happening is that the XLR input is converted back to SE via fully differential input (this enables common-mode noise rejection), then this SE input is split again into two differential signals just like what's happening to the RCA input.

This signal is then fed into the two differential output Amplifiers.

In a perfect setup, XLR and RCA will indeed result in identical sound quality.

In the messy reality of domestic listening environments though XLR preserves signal fidelity better than RCA in the way of CMRR.

 

[RoA]

Perhaps you haven't noticed, but there are fewer and fewer quality products, even from well-known companies. Repair options are also dwindling, with only a few exceptions.
Manufacturers who guarantee repairs even after 5 or 10 years can be counted on one hand.

The fact is that most large and/or well-known manufacturers have missed the boat because they relied on outdated designs with sometimes poor performance figures. And the prices charged by many of these manufacturers were exorbitant.
Instead of reinvesting profits in development, they continued to rest on their laurels.

Most of these devices don't have better performance figures or features than they did 30-40 years ago, and they certainly don't have the same quality as those older devices.
I can say this with certainty because I use several of these older devices and have compared them to current models that cost many times more. It's simply ridiculous what large and so-called high-end manufacturers are offering.

My last experience with expensive equipment in the four-figure and even higher four-figure price range from a German high-end manufacturer was simply awful.
Three of these amplifiers broke down within five to six years. My speakers were damaged twice. Although the fault lay in the amplifiers' defective protection circuitry, they refused to take responsibility. I had two amplifiers repaired at the time, but both failed again in less than two years. Luckily, this time I had additional protection circuits for the speakers.
Similar experiences exist among my acquaintances and friends with various reputable and high-end manufacturers.

What these three high-end manufacturers cost me back then, I could easily have bought 50 Topping B100 amplifiers. Even with a lifespan of only two years (i.e., the warranty period if purchased in Germany), they would last 50 years, three times longer than the other three amplifiers. And with significantly better performance.

The now widely used TPA3251/55-based amplifiers, such as the Topping PA5 II, Mini 300, 3E Audio A5/A7, Fosi, Aiyima, etc., not only sound better than most amplifiers costing 10, 20, or even 30 times as much, but they also boast good durability and reliability.

The large, well-known manufacturers have simply messed up. Poor test results, definitely no better sound, increasingly worse service and warranty coverage, more and more defects in the devices, increasingly poor development, etc.—I'm not spending my money on that anymore.
I'll still buy the few exceptions that remain, but I'll weigh the price-performance ratio much more critically.

So, if I have to choose between two evils, I'll choose the one that ultimately costs me less but also delivers more.

Seriously

 

[Roland68]

Seriously

Do you see things differently?

Are you okay with a €600-1000 device becoming unrepairable immediately after the 2-year warranty expires, or with repair costs including shipping amounting to 50-70% of the original price, which is roughly equivalent to its used value?

And on top of that, the cause of the failure is cost-cutting measures on a few SMD resistors and SMD film/ceramic capacitors, which the manufacturer may have used to save a maximum of €0.10 to €0.50 on your device?

 

[testp]

That's not entirely correct, or at least misleading.
A balanced analog connection only prevents or eliminates interference entering the cable. XLR therefore has an advantage over longer cables.
The noise inherent in the devices themselves remains; XLR cabling doesn't change that.

With shorter RCA cables, there's usually no difference, although it's worth noting that the measured values of the XLR inputs/outputs can be better on many devices.

With digital cables, jitter is more of a concern, but even then, a balanced digital cable is only necessary over longer distances.
For shorter distances, an optical Toslink connection can be advantageous because it provides galvanic isolation between the devices.

oh yeah, i meant the system as hole will be better at rejecting noise. but your are right, balanced only guarantees noise rejection between to components.

 

[antcollinet]

Thanks. I've been using my B100s in high gain mode for about 12 months with RCA cables. Are you saying that XLR cables will produce better sound quality in high gain? And why? And does that mean I should be using my B100s in medium gain mode until I get the Node Icon and the XLR cables?

Not audibly - unless you are getting audible common mode noise.

There might be a small improvement in Sinad - but it will not be audible.

 

[C0mbat]

Thanks all. When I put my head up to the tweeters (Viawave Ribbon tweeter) I can hear noise. But it's not audible from my seating position. Nonetheless, I may consider a cheap pair of XLR cables from Aliexpress at some point just to test it.

 

[Skj]

Thanks for the explanation of the "what". But "why" does that matter? How does that affect the quality of the sound coming out of my speakers?

Also, @testp said that high gain is lower performance but you've said that it would allow for the use of the amp in medium or low gain. So it sounds like you're saying something different?

Xlr out of your dac is double the rca output. So you can use lower gain on b100. Lower gain means better sound plus you attenuate the source lesser.

 

[FERCSA]

Xlr out of your dac is double the rca output. So you can use lower gain on b100. Lower gain means better sound plus you attenuate the source lesser.

@C0mbat See above these are the most important. I'm using a RME Fireface with 6.9V output with low gain and I know others using a Topping Pre90 which can output even 9.3V. I can tell you for sure I dont hear any noise on my tweeters. It's all about proper gain-staging.

Also I wrote this in an another threat I think it worth it to read through the whole page.

​

 

[antcollinet]

It's all about proper gain-staging.

Yes and no.

You are putting the gain somewhere - either in the pre-amp or in the input stage of the power amp. There is only a noise benefit to high gain pre with low gain power, if the pre amp is lower noise per db of gain then the power amp.

And if all a balanced pre is doing to create the balanced output is inverting the unbalanced signal, and putting it on a separate output pin - then you've gained nothing in terms of SNR at the output. You might have doubled the voltage of the signal - but you've also doubled the noise.**

The consequent lower gain on the power amp input only compensates for this increase - the noise at power amp output (all other things being equal) is basically the same.


**the benefit of balanced interconnect is not really in the higher voltage - it is in the common mode noise rejection.

 

[solonyone]

I came up with an idea for a new setup and wanted to ask for your opinion.

My current amplifier is the Marantz PM7000N, which I use mainly for Tidal streaming. My speakers are floorstanding Quadral Ascent 80.

I am considering replacing the Marantz with the following system:

• WiiM Pro (or WiiM Ultra) as the streamer
• Topping E70 Velvet as DAC and preamplifier
• 2 × Topping B100 mono power amplifiers

In theory, this setup should offer better measurements and potentially better sound quality.

Do you think this combination would provide a noticeable improvement over the Marantz PM7000N with the Quadral Ascent 80 speakers? Or its better to go with B200

I would appreciate your thoughts on whether this would be a worthwhile upgrade or just a side step.

 

[Negatywny]

in this setup, topping DAC is completely unnecessary. Thats paying ~1k$ for 115vs122 SINAD. Idk, maby if you have top prelistens, until then, ditch the topping (and put the money in to speakers). And yes it will be noticeably better.

 

[staticV3]

Do you think this combination would provide a noticeable improvement over the Marantz PM7000N with the Quadral Ascent 80 speakers?

Only if you make use of the WiiM's Parametric EQ for room correction and/or loudspeaker correction.

The Streamer, DAC, and Amp (B100/B200) themselves won't make a difference.

 

[C0mbat]

I came up with an idea for a new setup and wanted to ask for your opinion.

My current amplifier is the Marantz PM7000N, which I use mainly for Tidal streaming. My speakers are floorstanding Quadral Ascent 80.

I am considering replacing the Marantz with the following system:

• WiiM Pro (or WiiM Ultra) as the streamer
• Topping E70 Velvet as DAC and preamplifier
• 2 × Topping B100 mono power amplifiers

In theory, this setup should offer better measurements and potentially better sound quality.

Do you think this combination would provide a noticeable improvement over the Marantz PM7000N with the Quadral Ascent 80 speakers? Or its better to go with B200

I would appreciate your thoughts on whether this would be a worthwhile upgrade or just a side step.

I agree with @Negatywny above. The DAC is completely unnecessary. Get the WiiM Ultra and use that DAC. Then the decision between the B100 and B200 isn't about sound quality. They both measure the same (both top the amp charts). The main decision is based on power requirements. How loud do you listen, how far as you from the speakers and how big is your room? The B200s are more powerful.

I had the WiiM Ultra and B100 combination for a year. I just swapped to a Bluesound Node Icon. It was totally unnecessary and the WiiM is just as good if not better.

With your saved cash from not buying the E70 DAC, buy an MiniDSP Umik-1 mic and use it with auto room correction capability in the WiiM in order to resolve your bass modes.

Any additional money could be used towards your next upgrade

 

[solonyone]

That makes a lot of sense. If the E70 Velvet would not bring a meaningful improvement over the DAC in the WiiM Ultra, then it seems more reasonable to skip it and put that money elsewhere. I was thinking about B200 and WIIM does not have XLR output, so I was considering this DAC

My room is about 30 m² and I listen mainly to Tidal and FLAC files from my NAS. My music preferences are electronic, ambient, downtempo, indie and rock.

I currently use a Marantz PM7000N with Quadral Ascent 80 floorstanding speakers. What I like about the Marantz is its slightly warm and pleasant sound, but sometimes I feel it could offer better bass control, more punch and a bit more detail and dynamics.

I also believe the speakers are capable of more, especially since I am considering having them modified in the future.

Based on your comments, the most sensible upgrade path seems to be:

• WiiM Ultra
• 2 × Topping B100 (or B200 if more power is needed)
• UMIK-1 measurement microphone
• Room correction using WiiM PEQ

Do you think B100 would be sufficient for Quadral Ascent 80 in a 30 m² room, or would B200 be a better long-term choice? I know that Wiim need to be connected to B200 via RCA-XLR cable - is it something I should avoid?

 

[Guddu]

That makes a lot of sense. If the E70 Velvet would not bring a meaningful improvement over the DAC in the WiiM Ultra, then it seems more reasonable to skip it and put that money elsewhere. I was thinking about B200 and WIIM does not have XLR output, so I was considering this DAC

My room is about 30 m² and I listen mainly to Tidal and FLAC files from my NAS. My music preferences are electronic, ambient, downtempo, indie and rock.

I currently use a Marantz PM7000N with Quadral Ascent 80 floorstanding speakers. What I like about the Marantz is its slightly warm and pleasant sound, but sometimes I feel it could offer better bass control, more punch and a bit more detail and dynamics.

I also believe the speakers are capable of more, especially since I am considering having them modified in the future.

Based on your comments, the most sensible upgrade path seems to be:

• WiiM Ultra
• 2 × Topping B100 (or B200 if more power is needed)
• UMIK-1 measurement microphone
• Room correction using WiiM PEQ

Do you think B100 would be sufficient for Quadral Ascent 80 in a 30 m² room, or would B200 be a better long-term choice? I know that Wiim need to be connected to B200 via RCA-XLR cable - is it something I should avoid?

Wiim Amp Ultra could easily be better buy than Wiim Ultra + B100 pair, B100 isn't giving you more power. However It does give you option to upgrade your amplifier later if needed.

 

[Billy Budapest]

I currently use a Marantz PM7000N with Quadral Ascent 80 floorstanding speakers. What I like about the Marantz is its slightly warm and pleasant sound, but sometimes I feel it could offer better bass control, more punch and a bit more detail and dynamics.

In and of themselves, almost all solid state amplifiers are going to sound the same, if they are appropriately rated for the speakers’ impedance and have enough power to drive the speakers if they are particularly inefficient. So, I think what you are mostly describing is the sound of your speakers. I fear that changing your amplifier isn’t going to audibly affect the sound, and you will think you wasted a bunch of money. Although confirmation bias is strong, and you might perceive a difference in sound quality because of that. But will it be worth the price paid?