Topping A50 III

[Roland68]

Yeah, I can be a sucker for that sometimes. In the end, I think the money would be better spent on a nice pair of headphones instead, but that's a whole other thing I know nothing about (and won't get into it here). Also, if I didn't have external speakers, I probably wouldn't have given it a second thought, and purchased the A50 III anyway. I have a few other questions about the L50, but I will do that in the appropriate thread.

Thank you both (yourself and @staticV3 ) for being so kind with your advice/insight.

Edit: One of the things that I think caused me to start this discussion was that the headphone output isn't balanced, despite having the XLR connector on the front.

Good that you mentioned that.
You get exactly 0% advantage from a headphone amplifier with a balanced output for the headphones compared to SE with the same power. Absolutely 0!

You can even get disadvantages because the background noise of the two power amplifiers per channel is added together, but most manufacturers compensate for this through development and very low noise levels anyway. This topic has been discussed several times here in the forum.
I own a few HPAs, SE and Balanced myself, and I have never been able to detect any sound advantage of Balanced, only in relation to the Balanced and SE HP output.

The 4-pin XLR connection in the L50 is actually an advantage because this plug connection is much higher quality. You can also solder this plug onto any headphone cable later.

You're already in the right forum for good headphone recommendations, you should be able to find something in every price range.

 

[ziggurcat]

Good that you mentioned that.
You get exactly 0% advantage from a headphone amplifier with a balanced output for the headphones compared to SE with the same power. Absolutely 0!

You can even get disadvantages because the background noise of the two power amplifiers per channel is added together, but most manufacturers compensate for this through development and very low noise levels anyway. This topic has been discussed several times here in the forum.
I own a few HPAs, SE and Balanced myself, and I have never been able to detect any sound advantage of Balanced, only in relation to the Balanced and SE HP output.

The 4-pin XLR connection in the L50 is actually an advantage because this plug connection is much higher quality. You can also solder this plug onto any headphone cable later.

You're already in the right forum for good headphone recommendations, you should be able to find something in every price range.

There's definitely an allure to the Balanced connection. It's truly only been about a year since I've entered into the world of DACs, HPAs, and such. For virtually the entirety of my time involved in this hobby, I have been using SE connections, and still get enchanted at the prospect of a Balanced connection. I know I have a lot to learn, and I know there's a point where I have to tell myself to stop.

I have had a look at several of the HP reviews on this site, and it's even more alien to me than HPAs. I know my way around speaker measurements, and whatnot pretty okay, but I see some of the reviews where Amir kind of goes "yikes" to some of the results, and ends up recommending the headphones in the end. So it is difficult for me to understand what makes a pair of headphones good, bad or great.

 

[Roland68]

There's definitely an allure to the Balanced connection. It's truly only been about a year since I've entered into the world of DACs, HPAs, and such. For virtually the entirety of my time involved in this hobby, I have been using SE connections, and still get enchanted at the prospect of a Balanced connection. I know I have a lot to learn, and I know there's a point where I have to tell myself to stop.

I have had a look at several of the HP reviews on this site, and it's even more alien to me than HPAs. I know my way around speaker measurements, and whatnot pretty okay, but I see some of the reviews where Amir kind of goes "yikes" to some of the results, and ends up recommending the headphones in the end. So it is difficult for me to understand what makes a pair of headphones good, bad or great.

You have to differentiate between balanced connections/connections between devices and a balanced amplifier in a headphone amplifier. These two things have nothing to do with each other.

A balanced amplifier has 2 power amplifiers per channel to increase the power. But if both amplifiers, balanced and SE, have the same power, e.g. 3.4 watts, then there is no difference.

The balanced connections have the task of minimizing interference, especially on longer cable runs. On short cable runs and without major interference, you will not notice any difference to SE/RCA connections.

There is no magic.

And one more point, please do not chase completely balanced devices (internally), they can have many disadvantages but no advantages. But it can cost a lot of money without getting anything in return.

With headphones and the reviews, it depends on whether the HP can be adjusted sensibly to the Harman curve or to your own preferences with EQ. Of course, it is better if it is already close.
But in the HP report in the forum you will find some threads about it and Amirm has also written something about it.
Excellent Presentation on Headphone Measurements
Understanding Headphone Measurements & Hifiman HE-6 Review (video)

 

[ziggurcat]

You have to differentiate between balanced connections/connections between devices and a balanced amplifier in a headphone amplifier. These two things have nothing to do with each other.

A balanced amplifier has 2 power amplifiers per channel to increase the power. But if both amplifiers, balanced and SE, have the same power, e.g. 3.4 watts, then there is no difference.

The balanced connections have the task of minimizing interference, especially on longer cable runs. On short cable runs and without major interference, you will not notice any difference to SE/RCA connections.

There is no magic.

And one more point, please do not chase completely balanced devices (internally), they can have many disadvantages but no advantages. But it can cost a lot of money without getting anything in return.

With headphones and the reviews, it depends on whether the HP can be adjusted sensibly to the Harman curve or to your own preferences with EQ. Of course, it is better if it is already close.
But in the HP report in the forum you will find some threads about it and Amirm has also written something about it.
Excellent Presentation on Headphone Measurements
Understanding Headphone Measurements & Hifiman HE-6 Review (video)

Understood, thanks.

That is my understanding of Balanced connections in the context of interconnects.

I will check out those videos, thanks!

 

[TheTalbotHound]

I would be interested in seeing what difference the balanced input makes to the 50 Ohm balanced distortion vs power graph. The A50s has for a long time held the title of lowest noise floor from a balanced output in the 50 Ohm test. It would be interesting to find out how much of the higher performance of the A50s in this test came from being forced to use unbalanced inputs where usually the test would use an amp's balanced inputs.

 

[staticV3]

I would be interested in seeing what difference the balanced input makes to the 50 Ohm balanced distortion vs power graph. The A50s has for a long time held the title of lowest noise floor from a balanced output in the 50 Ohm test. It would be interesting to find out how much of the higher performance of the A50s in this test came from being forced to use unbalanced inputs where usually the test would use an amp's balanced inputs.

All relevant information regarding output noise can be found on Topping's website:


Load impedance does not affect output noise.

 

[TheTalbotHound]

All relevant information regarding output noise can be found on Topping's website:
View attachment 429914 View attachment 429915

Load impedance does not affect output noise.

Nice. Good to know the noise level stays just as low as with unbalanced inputs. The D50 III and A50 III really are the ones to beat right now.

 

[Roland68]

Do I have this right about the L50... the signal going thru the pass-through outputs is only activated when the L50 is OFF?
When the L50 is turned on (SE or BAL), there's no longer any pass-through output? (except thru headphone connections)

Pass-through is only available when the L50 is turned off. RCA -> RCA and TRS -> TRS.
There is no pass-through on the headphone output.

However, this is the thread for the A50 III.

 

[dtd]

As far as I understand, both the 4.4mm and 6.3mm jacks send out a audio signal at the same time. Is there any reason I should not connect two headphones at one time? I recently got a new headphone that supports 4.4mm balanced, and it would be very easy way to A/B test them with my older headphones

 

[Roland68]

As far as I understand, both the 4.4mm and 6.3mm jacks send out a audio signal at the same time. Is there any reason I should not connect two headphones at one time? I recently got a new headphone that supports 4.4mm balanced, and it would be very easy way to A/B test them with my older headphones

From a technical perspective, this is a bad idea.
The A50 III has four power amplifiers for the balanced output, two of which are also used for the SE output. If both HPA outputs are used simultaneously, two power amplifiers are subjected to greater load and different impedances, which is not sensible and could also affect the sound.

Two more points. You would have different volumes, which makes a comparison pointless.
Headphones/speakers and amplifiers always influence each other. This influence also makes a sound comparison pointless when headphones/speakers are connected in parallel.

 

[dtd]

From a technical perspective, this is a bad idea.
The A50 III has four power amplifiers for the balanced output, two of which are also used for the SE output. If both HPA outputs are used simultaneously, two power amplifiers are subjected to greater load and different impedances, which is not sensible and could also affect the sound.

Two more points. You would have different volumes, which makes a comparison pointless.
Headphones/speakers and amplifiers always influence each other. This influence also makes a sound comparison pointless when headphones/speakers are connected in parallel.

Allright, thanks for the feedback!

 

[dtd]

@Roland68 I do actually have another question closely related to my previous. Atm I have 1 headphone with a balanced connector, 1 with 3.5mm and 1 IEM with 3.5mm, can I just stick a 6.3mm adapter into the AMP and leave it in there, even if I am using the balance headphones/connector? Or will it cause the same issues? For clarity, I will not be using the 3.5mm hp/IEM at the same time as a balanced, just leaving the 6.3mm adapter "empty" in the amp

 

[Roland68]

@Roland68 I do actually have another question closely related to my previous. Atm I have 1 headphone with a balanced connector, 1 with 3.5mm and 1 IEM with 3.5mm, can I just stick a 6.3mm adapter into the AMP and leave it in there, even if I am using the balance headphones/connector? Or will it cause the same issues? For clarity, I will not be using the 3.5mm hp/IEM at the same time as a balanced, just leaving the 6.3mm adapter "empty" in the amp

It won't damage anything and you can leave the adapter in there.