Tools for building better speakers

[RickS]

I guess that the latest CLIO 13 and 14 and VituixCAD are able to open CLIOwin 7 files saved 20 years ago. Very good feature in long term pro work. I started with version 10 and fw-01 hardware. Version 12 required hardware upgrade to fw-02. Version 14 requires fw-03 so I'm also kinda outdated with existing 13 QC and fw-02. The only problem has been quite new HP ZBook 16 Fury G11 with intial green energy bios version. Bus took short naps whenever possible with all performance options. Also while measurements so had to play a music video to keep it awake . Anyway, Danny's version does not matter in practice. User and environment do.

Clearly, you have more experience with CLIO than I! After you questioned, did go and look at v14. Functionally, it may be great, but the UI looks like 80s code and so does a lot of the legacy graphing.

 

[Keith_W]

Wasn't there some changes made post measurements???

I honestly don't know. I think he may have improved his QC a little after that rather unflattering Korean review that was posted on ASR which showed a lot of manufacturing problems in detail. @Holmz lives in the same town as him and sees him more often than I do, maybe he can comment?

 

[kimmosto]

Functionally, it may be great, but the UI looks like 80s code and so does a lot of the legacy graphing.

I would say 90s with MSC. Text mode and graphics mode were separate in the 80s, and graphics was done bit by bit for certain graphics adapter such as Hercules My first speaker simulator for PC was using separate graphics mode for response charts, and configuration was done in text mode.
Changing programming environment to get more modern UI requires rewriting every program line so it would be massive work and risk. I guess that won't happen as long as application runs on Windows and has adequate features.

 

[kimmosto]

How do you find the Clio software / interface compared to for instance REW / VituixCAD? With regards to both user friendliness and features?

CLIO + VituixCAD wins that game 6-1 in my opinion.
As already said, CLIO is fast and easy to use. Compact, just few new features in major versions, self-calibrating voltage magnitude+phase, SPL calibrated with mic data, public .mls and .sin file formats for post processing with own extensions such as scripting languages and VituixCAD, support for motorized table, optional QC box with calibrated power amplifier and quality control with scripting for manufacturers.
Traditions in file formats has caused some limits to development. For example, Hanning has been the only window function, but VituixCAD is able to break that limit with it's comprehensive range and left window which are mandatory for polar measurements with short time window.

REW was not designed for speaker engineering so it developed (literally) for room response equalization. Proper file naming system for polar measurements was introduced finally in V5.20.14 after my 'intervention' so that part has been okay for few years now. Timing reference, time axis handling and different calibrations are still complex and uncertain / unsustainable due to generic audio interface. REW is developing continuously and many new features are added. Author has reacted positively to many requests, but it has made the program full-blown and it's difficult to understand different parameters and actual significance for users. In addition, visible promoting of Umik has caused harm and costs for users starting to design loudspeakers.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

CLIO + VituixCAD wins that game 6-1 in my opinion.
As already said, CLIO is fast and easy to use. Compact, just few new features in major versions, self-calibrating voltage magnitude+phase, SPL calibrated with mic data, public .mls and .sin file formats for post processing with own extensions such as scripting languages and VituixCAD, support for motorized table, optional QC box with calibrated power amplifier and quality control with scripting for manufacturers.
Traditions in file formats has caused some limits to development. For example, Hanning has been the only window function, but VituixCAD is able to break that limit with it's comprehensive range and left window which are mandatory for polar measurements with short time window.

REW was not designed for speaker engineering so it developed (literally) for room response equalization. Proper file naming system for polar measurements was introduced finally in V5.20.14 after my 'intervention' so that part has been okay for few years now. Timing reference, time axis handling and different calibrations are still complex and uncertain / unsustainable due to generic audio interface. REW is developing continuously and many new features are added. Author has reacted positively to many requests, but it has made the program full-blown and it's difficult to understand different parameters and actual significance for users. In addition, visible promoting of Umik has caused harm and costs for users starting to design loudspeakers.

Right. Sounds interesting. The motorized table support is attractive as well. Even though I must say those motorized table manufacturers aren't exactly visible / easy to get to. The only one I at least found a distributor for was the Outline ET250-3D, but nowhere to directly purchase it.

I seem to remember I checked that turntable once in the past, and it was pretty expensive. so the full CLIO suite with hardware + mic + motorized turntable is probably around 5000 euro or something then. Still pretty cheap compared to the NFS of course.

 

[kimmosto]

so the full CLIO suite with hardware + mic + motorized turntable is probably around 5000 euro or something then.

Outline 250 could be close to 5 k€. 50 is a bit cheaper. Any company with VAT number can order it.
Fortunately ARTA, CLIO and REW are quite easy to use without motor. Just define naming system, start and click Go or space bar or whatever needed to measure after manual rotation of each angle is done. Wireless keyboard close to the table helps a lot. I had manual table for years before Outline 50.

 

[RickS]

Outline 250 could be close to 5 k€. 50 is a bit cheaper. Any company with VAT number can order it.
Fortunately ARTA, CLIO and REW are quite easy to use without motor. Just define naming system, start and click Go or space bar or whatever needed to measure after manual rotation of each angle is done. Wireless keyboard close to the table helps a lot. I had manual table for years before Outline 50.

Agree REW can be complex, but community support has been great. Your document on how to use VituixCAD with REW made the speaker design measurements much easier.

Will likely move or copy a portion of this discussion to another thread as can see am guilty of abetting thread drift.

 

[kimmosto]

Will likely move or copy a portion of this discussion to another thread as can see am guilty of abetting thread drift.

Once again it has been painful to watch how innocent companies and products are being dragged into the mud. Remove unfounded accusations related to CLIO if you are going to move something.

 

[amirm]

For example, Hanning has been the only window function,

It is a Hann window, not Hanning. Application of Hann window to a signal can be called Hanning. But the window function is properly called Hann, named after its inventor.

It bugs me to read the same mistake in Klippel documentation.

 

[kimmosto]

ARTA and REW spell it right but all others I remember use Hanning or Hanning/2. Sorry about that Julius von Hann.

 

[jareinertson]

Whilst there's no comparison in the severity of the outcome there is a parallel there. Some otherwise intelligent, educated people are able to set aside basic common sense and quite happily put their trust in the salesman, this happens a lot in Hi-Fi.

Suspension of common sense and critical thinking happens with many things… sadly.

 

[RickS]

Once again it has been painful to watch how innocent companies and products are being dragged into the mud. Remove unfounded accusations related to CLIO if you are going to move something.

Will see what I can do to clarify without being accused of censorship. Sharing your personal experience has helped thanks. It is very helpful when someone credible explains their experience in detail without being overly dismissive. As we have discussed, the answer is a bit more complex. As I looked over Clio’s version support matrix, their struggle became much more apparent.

Having worked on automation software I appreciate the challenge of balancing long term product improvement while keeping up with changing software technology.

 

[TimVG]

Some Directiva team members preferred ARTA

Guilty, although I'm a later convert. I just use ARTA to record the impulse responses, and use VituixCAD for everything else (even the mic cal). To each his own but for me this is a very straightforward way of working. I use a 15s time window between measurements, and turn manually (pin lock every 10°). All the measurements are appropriately named automatically as well. I personally wouldn't go back to REW for loudspeaker measurements.

 

[kimmosto]

Guilty, ...

ARTA is still the best free tool for design measurements and acoustical parameters imo. It contains well-working Speech Transmission Index too.
I started in the 80s with DIY mic + DIY generator+frequency counter+level meter -combo. Later some already forgotten MLS and RTA tools, LspLAB, justMLS, SoundEasy EasyLab, ARTA and finally CLIO 10-13 with QC gadgets and motorized table. Some tests also with REW and HolmImpulse, but not for speaker projects, because fully equipped ARTA was already available.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

Outline 250 could be close to 5 k€. 50 is a bit cheaper. Any company with VAT number can order it.
Fortunately ARTA, CLIO and REW are quite easy to use without motor. Just define naming system, start and click Go or space bar or whatever needed to measure after manual rotation of each angle is done. Wireless keyboard close to the table helps a lot. I had manual table for years before Outline 50.

We're moving completely off topic from this thread, but here is another option, are you familiar with that?

SoundCheck Software - Listen, Inc.

Electroacoustic Test and Audio Test & Measurement Systems

www.listeninc.com

 

[kimmosto]

you familiar with that?

No. Some have suggested that I should make my own measurement program or add reflection remover to VCAD supporting almost any program, but I don't have enough motivation and free time for that.

 

[RickS]

I feel reminded to say that we can all be biased towards software we are accustomed to using. More on that later…

 

[Devnull]

Surprised no one has mentioned Visaton Boxsim in this thread.

 

[RickS]

As for ARTA, could see that it had a lot of good science behind it. I did not find it very intuitive though and has yet another dated UI...

In hindsight, notably with ARTA's discontinuance, REW was a better choice for collaborating. Never know when the next Microsoft update breaks stuff and if nobody is around to fix, you are forced to make more tradeoffs. There can be enough hassle just ensuring your audio interface is working well and keeps working. In the end, lack of a dedicated space really put a crimp in my efforts. Will likely struggle just to keep my woodshop as we downsize.

 

[Sigberg Audio]

So REW, Clio, Klippel, Soundcheck. Any other professional/semi-professional tools for speaker measurements?