Tonwinner AD 60 follow up.

[hogie]

I did my first post back in sept. asking for input to Tonewinner AD 60 class ab amp. I want to share my observations now that I have 3 months with it. IN the beginning busy with becoming familiar it took time to sit and listen to enough material musically from different sources. Shortly I found myself not happy with the more veiled although easy to listen to Q 3020i speakers. I needed more. Using a small 8 inch sub I of course increased my depth for both music and great on hdmi arc from Qled.
I was getting at louder volumes and I don't mean concert level I was getting a bass fog, bloom I guess you call it. I stuffed the sub and also had to decrease bass 3 db.At the same time I also experienced the need to do same with treble to the tune of -- 2 db. Final
Y I have inserted into system SVS Evolution nanos. What a speaker. Took a little more power but opened up my ears and my music One problem the aforementioned bass and treble problems were still present. Nixed the sub. Still there.So much so my attenuation were increased.
The amp! I decided to play some more complex passages of acoustical , both rock , blues and electronic. The compression and hardness of the upper mid and high end at higher level is harsh. The bass seems exaggerated. Turning bass down 6 db is unacceptable. For
Does this indicate the claimed 50 watts at 8ohm and 80 at 4 ohms. is bull ? I think so. I believe in my humble opinion the amp is clipping under duress just trying to drive the speakers. Am I wrong. I have found on the AD 60 there is Avery small windows of volume on the 80 level scale where it actually performs decently. From 25, and that is very quiet, to 55-60 before it exhibits bass bloom and a hard harshness.
Needless to say I ordered, on sale from my most trusted brand the Rotel A12mk11.
Can anybody give me insight on this experience. Also my opinion of Tonewinner products is now formulated and it ain't good !

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Can anybody give me insight on this experience. Also my opinion of Tonewinner products is now formulated and it ain't good !

You have drawn a lot of conclusions and changed gear without sharing any measurements with us. We simply can't help you if you don't share your measurements. And you can't help yourself unless you take measurements!

Some thoughts:
Amir has recently been showing that some amplifiers are unable to sustain power at low frequencies, but the majority he has tested seems to be OK.
Your problems may be due to the amplifier, but it's unlikely. For many years I used an 80W (nominal at 8 Ohms) amplifier. It was easily capable of ear-damaging levels. These days of cheap high power I now have 400W amp into 4 Ohm nominal.
Unless it's faulty, your problems are almost certainly nothing to do with your amplifier. The room is the most likely culprit, followed by the speakers.
The business about "where things sound good on the volume dial" is not important. The dial tells you nothing. What you are experiencing is gain and what's known as "reference level" where pink noise at -20 equates to c 80dB in room where things sometimes sound "correct".

Like I say, just some thoughts. Measurements would allow us to give specific advice.

 

[hogie]

I have done speaker, cable and amp comparisons simply replacing with Fosi bt20 a pro and Qacoustic 3020 i speakers and problem persisted with Tonewinner as drive unit and disappeared with Fosi. I don't have luxury as most listeners in their homes to do analytics with testing equipment to do scientific conclusions. I simply isolate, do comparative analysis and rely upon my god given senses to come to a auditory satisfying conclusion. I have owned and tinkerd with stereo equipment since 1975 and without the benefit of expert scientific analysis this is my available practical conclusion and solution to satisfy my listening experience. After all isn't that what is all about, the pleasure of music. Incidently changing amp ,doing some in room changes to fine tune the acoustics I have happily solved problem. It is up to Tonewinner to solve theirs. The Rotel with Svs nanos is a great combo !

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I simply isolate, do comparative analysis and rely upon my god given senses to come to a auditory satisfying conclusion

I've fixed a lot of electronics and solved complex system interactions. Without reliable, repeatable measurements, I would not have been able to do this. Ears + brain are totally hopeless at isolating problems.

 

[hogie]

Thanks Max. I was not in position as you to do instrumental measurement and analysis. I simply performed in various scenarios of different equipment and interconnects compared to the base problem scenario. It isolated to the Tonewinner amps performance. I guess its system interaction was not producing a auditory experience that was pleasing to me. But I appreciate and understand what you say. I do not have technical expertise to analyze the Tonwinners performance in scientific measurements and then attempt to solve what it is within those results that are the cause of my displeasure in listening experience. Again thankyou.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Thanks Max. I was not in position as you to do instrumental measurement and analysis. I simply performed in various scenarios of different equipment and interconnects compared to the base problem scenario. It isolated to the Tonewinner amps performance. I guess its system interaction was not producing a auditory experience that was pleasing to me. But I appreciate and understand what you say. I do not have technical expertise to analyze the Tonwinners performance in scientific measurements and then attempt to solve what it is within those results that are the cause of my displeasure in listening experience. Again thankyou.

The way you describe yourself is pretty much the situation for most people who have a music system and enjoy listening to music. The number of audio or music enthusiasts who can diagnose faults in audio equipment is quite small!

BUT in order for something to be repeatable it has to measurable and produce the same results for different people in different locations. What this means is that your opinion about these amplifiers is irrelevant to anybody but you! You are not in any sort of position to claim that one amplifier causes issues (other than faults or reliability) or that this amplifier sounds better than that amplifier. Your opinion, because it's not based on repeatable experiments performable by other people, only applies to you!

You also are at risk of falling into a classic trap of believing "everything matters". There's simply no evidence for that.

 

[hogie]

Right on there Einstein. Appreciate the revelation.It is my world I live in not your quantifiable, calculated and non personalized laboratory. Over and out Spock.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

Right on there Einstein. Appreciate the revelation.It is my world I live in not your quantifiable, calculated and non personalized laboratory. Over and out Spock.

Which is fine. It just means that nothing you say is relevant to anybody else.