To Sub or not to Sub?

[RB Dennis 57]

My primary 'Kit" if you will, consists of a Benchmark AHB2 amp, Topping Pre90, w/ a Topping DXB Pro+ DAC for streaming. The Speakers are the Revel Performa3 M106. I also have a Thorens TD160 and a Conrad Johnson PV8 Tube preamp that I exchange XLR to RCA Inputs from the Amplifier when I spin records.

When friends visit, almost everyone tries to persuade me to get a Sub-woofer, which I have resisted doing for years. Since I longer care for Hard Rock and metal in my senior years, I can't see the need for R&B, R&R, Americana, Sinatra/Jazz and blues from time to time. However, since all sources are not created equal, I do feel the need from time-to-time, "tweak". The CJ and the Topping pre has no tone control and the speakers are 2-way. I'm certainly not inclined to have an Equalizer. As I consider pulling the trigger on a Sub-Woofer, I've been trying to find feedback on the subject. Benchmark recommends pairing the REL Subwoofers equipped w/ speak-on connectors. However, from some of the threads I've read regarding REL were not very kind.

Others I have spoken with suggest the REL is more "musical" compared to other brands such as SVS. So, if I would choose, it would be the REL. I'm not about the "chest pumping".
The only other option would be to replace the 2-way M106'S with 3-way floor-standers, however, I do so love the M106'S. I can listen for hours on end w/ no fatigue. In fact, I have the little brother M105's for my secondary kit. Feel free to "pile on".

Thank you in advance.

 

[sigbergaudio]

How loud do you typically play?

You say you feel the need to tweak, but you don't want an equalizer. Why not?

 

[Cogito]

If you are satified with the bass performance of your M106s, there's no need for a subwoofer. The subs adds more variables to consider when setting up your system for best sound.

As for REL vs SVS... SVS offers a whole lot more bang for the buck at any price point and their customer service is industry leading.

 

[levimax]

I would ignore undefined terms like "more musical" which means nothing. The problem with REL is that they encourage not using a "high pass" filter on the main speakers. This eliminates one of the main advantages of having a subwoofer which is to relieve the main speakers of LF duty which will reduce distortion and increase SPL.

SVS subs are OK and their biggest advantage can also be their biggest liability which is their comprehensive DSP and app. While it sounds good and can be helpful it also adds a considerable amount of latency and since subs generally need the mains to be delayed this adds to the problem. In order to use SVS effectively you need to be able to delay the mains relative to the subs with some bass management which I don't think you have with your current set up (not sure of the capabilities of all of your gear).

One of the biggest myths in audio is that "subs are easy to integrate". If you aren't motivated to spend a considerable amount of time and effort to integrate your subs I would not bother. If you are motivated, do your homework and you should be able to get some sound improvement but it will not be plug and play.

 

[vddobrev]

Getting a subwoofer (or two) is the easy part. Properly integrating with your system and speakers is the difficult part. If you are not prepared to get some sort of DSP and Room Correction software, you will not get very good results by just setting a crossover at your pre-amp or streamer... I recommend you start reading on how to integrate subwoofer(s) and decide yourself if you want to go that way.

 

[RB Dennis 57]

How loud do you typically play?

You say you feel the need to tweak, but you don't want an equalizer. Why not?

Seldom do I play loud, but I do have my moments. But again, some sources are like grits. They need all the help they can get.

 

[digitalfrost]

Personally, I like dedicated subwoofers because they solve a lot of problems. We know from Toole that a lot of the satisfaction of listening to music is judged by the bass, and it's an important topic for a lot of people when considering speakers. However, we also know that the room takes over below Schröder and if you want "perfect bass" whatever that means it usually involves tweaking using DSP anyway.

Now with a lot of speakers, especially smaller ones like that M106 you run into the problem that the bass reflex tuning frequency is rather high and boosting below (you can see from the impedance M106 is tuned to ~50hz: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/revel-m106-bookshelf-speaker-review.14363) the tuning frequency is not a good idea since the enclosure is acoustially open at this point and you will generate a lof membrane movement which will increase distortion. Especially in 2 way speakers where the woofer also has to play the midrange.

But I agree with vddobrev, getting a sub is the easy part. Properly integrating it is something else.

I think you just have to decide for yourself if you are happy with the amount and volume of bass you have at the moment. If not, anything regarding subs requires quite a bit of money and effort when wanting to do it properly.

Personally I like subs, because they take one very important factor when deciding about speakers out of the equation. I do not care how deep a speaker goes and I do not care how loud it can play bass. I will actively manage the bass regardless.

But if you're happy with what you have, let people talk.

 

[DVDdoug]

It seems like you're satisfied and your friends want more bass. Maybe one of them will let you try theirs in your setup.

I haven't heard your Revel's but I'm a bit of a "big woofer snob" and I barely consider an 8-inch woofer to be a "woofer".

Yeah, integrating a sub without an AVR can be tricky. AVRs have an optional built-in crossover ("bass management") and a line-level subwoofer output for a powered sub.

But a lot of subs have a line-level pass-through crossover and if you have separate preamps and power amps it's not hard to pass the signal through the sub.

If you have full-range speakers, the ONLY reason for a subwoofer is for the "point one" LFE channel in movies. The LFE isn't included in the downmix so without a surround decoder and a sub you only get the "regular bass" from the other channels.

I'm certainly not inclined to have an Equalizer.

Tone controls or EQ are the easiest (and least expensive) way to alter or improve the sound. And as you said, a lot of recordings "need" some adjustment and tone control knobs are a quick-and-easy way to improve it. An equalizer is usually better if you want to correct speaker response or room characteristics.

And when you do have a subwoofer that gives you another adjustment. I sometimes boost the subwoofer when listening at lower levels as a kind of loudness compensation. If I had a handy bass knob I'd probably use that...

...In the old days I sort-of "felt guilty" about using tone controls or EQ, like there was something wrong with my system. But now I'm more practical. Plus, there usually is SOMETHING wrong or imperfect.

 

[sigbergaudio]

Seldom do I play loud, but I do have my moments. But again, some sources are like grits. They need all the help they can get.

It's hard to give general advice over the internet without knowing how your system sounds and what your preferences are. Adding a sub won't make sources sound less like grit probably.

Properly integrating a subwoofer is a lot of work, and will likely require you to do changes to your setup for full effect, implementing both high pass filtering and EQ.

Replacing your preamp with something that has integrated EQ or maybe even just traditional tone controls might be enough to get what you want. It also sounds a bit like you were initially happy but everyone visiting wants you to have a sub? So I'm not sure if you are hoping this thread will convince you to purchase one, or to NOT purchase one?

 

[RB Dennis 57]

It seems like you're satisfied and your friends want more bass. Maybe one of them will let you try theirs in your setup.

I haven't heard your Revel's but I'm a bit of a "big woofer snob" and I barely consider an 8-inch woofer to be a "woofer".

Yeah, integrating a sub without an AVR can be tricky. AVRs have an optional built-in crossover ("bass management") and a line-level subwoofer output for a powered sub.

But a lot of subs have a line-level pass-through crossover and if you have separate preamps and power amps it's not hard to pass the signal through the sub.

If you have full-range speakers, the ONLY reason for a subwoofer is for the "point one" LFE channel in movies. The LFE isn't included in the downmix so without a surround decoder and a sub you only get the "regular bass" from the other channels.


Tone controls or EQ are the easiest (and least expensive) way to alter or improve the sound. And as you said, a lot of recordings "need" some adjustment and tone control knobs are a quick-and-easy way to improve it. An equalizer is usually better if you want to correct speaker response or room characteristics.

And when you do have a subwoofer that gives you another adjustment. I sometimes boost the subwoofer when listening at lower levels as a kind of loudness compensation. If I had a handy bass knob I'd probably use that...

...In the old days I sort-of "felt guilty" about using tone controls or EQ, like there was something wrong with my system. But now I'm more practical. Plus, there usually is SOMETHING wrong or imperfect.

Well, I do have an NAD 1155 Pre w/ tone controls and a "Loudness" button and has served me well when I have my tube pre serviced. But now when I think about it, I don't use the button when I play records. It creates too much vibration and feedback even though I have suitable isolation on the stands, TT and room dampening. I would dare say a Sub would create the same issue.

 

[Yameyo]

My sub has a convenient auto-on function and LED that turns green when the sub is active. By setting the crossover to different levels in my AVR, I've been able to demonstrate to myself that barely any music I listen to has much low frequency content, including tracks that I naively thought of as being bassy (Massive Attack's Angel, for instance). You might find that adding a sub really adds very little in terms of the music that you enjoy. Movies are a different story, of course.

 

[DonH56]

The REL claim of "more musical" is a myth and marvel of marketing. Whether you need a sub is hard to say since it's a matter of preference. I will say that adding a sub to my stereo system decades ago was a revelation in what I was missing with speakers that rolled off around 50~60 Hz, same as your M106's. That was with a variety of music, classical, jazz, rock, and long before movies and AVRs went through my system.

Adding a sub to your system is challenging since you have no crossover and do not wish to add any sort of equalizer. The best solution might be something like a Rythmik F12 or F15 with the A370PEQ amplifier that has a line-level crossover built into the subwoofer, or other sub such as JL that includes crossover. The Rythmik also includes a rumble filter, critical when dealing with records ("vinyl"). Here is a link to the little 12" Rythmik -- note I own several Rythmik subs, have for over ten years, so am biased in their favor: https://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.html

Here is my usual "why subs?" post from the primordial past.

Why Subs?

I use subs, and have for decades, for all the usual reasons:

- Very (perhaps extremely) few "large" speakers actually play well below 40 Hz let alone 20 Hz. They distort heavily when presented with large bass signals (which most are -- see Fletcher-Munson) and driving them hard down low robs headroom for higher frequencies and causes distortion well above the fundamental signal frequency (harmonic and nasty intermodulation). Subs typically enable the mains to operate with much lower distortion.

- Very rare is the room setup such that the best place for stereo imaging and soundfield is the best place for the subs (or deep bass drivers) to counter room modes and such. Having independent subs provides placement options to smooth the in-room response. It is almost impossible to counter a null without subs (typically must move the MLP or change the room's dimensions though there are purpose-built panels that can also work). This is one of the things that led me to subs despite having quite capable mains.

- Powered subs offload the main amplifiers of the need to provide deep bass energy, providing more headroom and cleaner sound from the amplifiers.

- Music (let alone action movies) often contains deep bass content even if it is not real obvious. Kick drums, tympani, organ, sure, but also piano hammer strikes, plucked strings, beat patterns from instruments playing together, etc. May not really notice when they are there but usually obvious when they are taken away. Having subs fill in the bottom octave or three can make a difference.

- Purpose-built subs can provide high output cleanly at relatively low cost. The amplifiers and drivers need only cover a fairly limited frequency range so have fewer constraints upon them than woofers in a full-range system.

I do prefer main speakers with fairly deep bass and always have. Crossovers are not brick walls so a fair amount of energy still comes from the mains an octave below the crossover frequency. Higher-order crossovers allow you to reduce the overlap, but I still like having the capability. I have never really understood the idea of running "passive" bi-amping as implemented by an AVR (sending full-range signals to multiple channels and letting the speaker's crossovers separate frequency bands -- wastes amplifier headroom and seems to me of little benefit). Nor do I agree with the "plus" setting putting subs and mains in parallel; again, my idea has always been to isolate the two for the reasons above.

My first sub was a DIY design using an Infinity IRS woofer with my own control box to provide the crossover and a servo circuit using the second voice coil of the woofer. I had a Hafler DH-220 around so also incorporated a circuit to bridge it for use as a subwoofer amp. It worked well and the -3 dB point was ~16 Hz. I now run four small (F12) Rythmik subs using a similar (but updated) servo design with my Revel Salon2's and am happy with the result.

FWIWFM/IME/IMO/my 0.000001 cent (microcent) - Don

 

[Mike_Trueman]

Revel M106 speakers with 2 SVS subs would sound very good when the amplifier HPF is set on 50hz.

 

[Robin L]

Judging from the measurements the always reliable John Atkinson made for Stereophile of the Revel Performa3 M106 speakers:

Revel Performa3 M106 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

Sidebar 3: Measurements I used DRA Labs' MLSSA system and a calibrated DPA 4006 microphone to measure the Revel Performa3 M106's frequency response in the farfield, and an Earthworks QTC-40 for the nearfield responses. Though the M106 is supplied with a grille, and an optional foam plug for its...

www.stereophile.com

these speakers measure flat to 60 hz, have useful output to about 40 hz or so:

I've got a sub that goes to about 25 hz with some output, is pretty much flat to 30 hz. That bottom octave is mainly useful for pipe organ and modern pop—techno, EDM, dance pop—and really not too much else. A piano can go down there and that extra bottom aids in giving a sense of body to the instrument but losing that bottom octave really will produce about as much difference as getting a different seat in the concert hall. It took me a long time to integrate my sub to my Infinity Primus 250s, they theoretically go down to 60 hz, but I hear an audible improvement in most of what I listen to (mostly Classical these days). From what you say about the music you're likely to listen to, it might not be worth the trouble.

 

[goat76]

The REL claim of "more musical" is a myth and marvel of marketing.

I don’t think I have ever seen REL themselves claimed or used it in their marketing that their subwoofers are more musical than others. I believe that myth is something users and audiophiles have spread over the years, and the reason for that may be that they are pretty easy to integrate with the main speakers when you don’t have to fiddle with low-pass filters by using their suggested high-level signal.

I find the above to be true. If someone is completely satisfied with the performance of their main speakers and just want more bass extension, without the need for more SPL capability, the ”REL method” works great and makes it very easy to get the subwoofers to integrate seamlessly with the main speakers.

But using an equalizer is almost certainly a must when it comes to deep bass.

 

[Flaesh]

Feel free to "pile on".

Buy a microphone. It will be clearer what you hear there.

 

[WillBrink]

I'm of the opinion no system will not benefit a lot to a little from the inclusion of quality subs properly integrated.

 

[levimax]

I'm of the opinion no system will not benefit a lot to a little from the inclusion of quality subs properly integrated.

So that would mean few systems will benefit based on the quality of the average sub and the average integration methods

 

[tengiz]

My experience - as a user and an enthusiast of consumer audio - has been very consistent: unless your room was specifically designed, planned, and built for audio, chances are your initial, most logical choice of speaker and listening positions will suffer from serious bass issues. If it doesn’t, consider yourself lucky.

And by “serious bass issues,” I mean no amount of EQ can fix certain dips in the frequency response without demanding excessive power from your amp and woofer - unless they have a lot of headroom. In many cases, compensating for those nulls requires much more power compared to the uncorrected response.

If you're stuck with fixed speaker or listener positions - because of furniture, aesthetics, or room layout - and can't move things around to tame those destructive modal effects, there’s really no way around it and you’ll benefit from adding one or more subs to get clean, reasonably flat bass.

 

[vsch]

I guess your system would probably benefit from a properly integrated and room-corrected subwoofer. However, in my experience, that requires an active crossover for room correction and time/phase alignment, and measurements — otherwise, a sub can sometimes worsen things due to room interactions and poor integration. So if you’re opposed to EQ and measurements, you might be better off sticking with the speakers you have.

Regarding SVS vs. REL: Based on my somewhat limited experience — I’ve used an SVS SB-1000 Classic and an Arendal 1961 1S — I’d say that once subwoofers are properly integrated and room-corrected, audible differences between competent subs tend to be minimal. The main difference is how much SPL they can produce at low frequencies. That’s likely because, below 100 Hz, the room contributes most of what you hear. Personally, REL subs seem a bit expensive for what they offer unless you specifically want their high-level connection or aesthetics.