To Spotify or Not?

[pablolie]

...

I'm sorry, let me show my ignorance here, what is LMS. I've tried to Gaggle it but, does it have something to do with the Lyrion music server platform?

It used to be Slimdevices, then acquired by Logitech... who didn't know what to do with a software ecosystem because they just do hardware sales with mice and such.

Once Logitech discontinued the product line (in 2012 if memory serves), it became an open software project which culminated in the current Lyrion Music Server instantiation. It is stellar. Can you imagine staying with the same software ecosystem for 20+ years?

I love it. Got into it in 2005 as an experiment... and never looked back.

 

[Sal1950]

I love it. Got into it in 2005 as an experiment... and never looked back.

Thanks, I was more aware of Squeezbox though never used it. A quick read of that Wiki page references as somewhat bandwidth limited, can it stream multich high rez audio or 4k video over network? I use Kodi-VLC-Strawberry over HDMI but the distance becomes a real headache, for 50ft I'm using a active optical cable but still this system can be touchy. Networking is far from my background.

 

[sergeauckland]

I'm sorry, let me show my ignorance here, what is LMS. I've tried to Gaggle it but, does it have something to do with the Lyrion music server platform?

Yes, LMS is Lyrion Music (or Media) Server. Used to be Logitech MS, before that Slimserver. It's supported by a community of programmers that keep it updated.

S

 

[PristineSound]

Just came across this podcast, thought about this thread.

The summary: how megatours came about. One of the reasons cited is that artists focused on live shows because of dropping revenue at the start of illegal download days.

This is the new business model now. The artists that suffers the most are the artists who do this part time, as they cannot afford to take time away from work and concerns are requires investors, which is very difficult.

BBC World Service - The Inquiry, How did music megatours become such a money spinner?

How did live music evolve into a billion-dollar business for global stars?

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[pablolie]

Just came across this podcast, thought about this thread.

The summary: how megatours came about. One of the reasons cited is that artists focused on live shows because of dropping revenue at the start of illegal download days.

This is the new business model now. The artists that suffers the most are the artists who do this part time, as they cannot afford to take time away from work and concerns are requires investors, which is very difficult.

BBC World Service - The Inquiry, How did music megatours become such a money spinner?

How did live music evolve into a billion-dollar business for global stars?

www.bbc.co.uk

How is that in any way different from standard professional life for all of us? Why should artists be artificially shielded from the fact that, to make a lot of money, you have to be a star in your field of supposed expertise? They sign the dotted line to get their music to play on whatever streaming service. It's their decision, and why would I call them incompetent when it comes to making their business decisions? Yeah there's a lot of competition. Welcome to market economy.

I am actually getting tired of the argument that artists are too stupid to make educated decisions about the channels they use to distribute their art to the public.

Illegal downloads have nothing to do with streaming services. They existed before, and it is up to consumers to show respect for intellectual property. There are severe potential risks in downloading and owning stolen intellectual property. It's consumers thinking that way that are the problem, not streaming services that actually pay artists for every time their songs play.

 

[PristineSound]

How is that in any way different from standard professional life for all of us? Why should artists be artificially shielded from the fact that, to make a lot of money, you have to be a star in your field of supposed expertise? They sign the dotted line to get their music to play on whatever streaming service. It's their decision, and why would I call them incompetent when it comes to making their business decisions? Yeah there's a lot of competition. Welcome to market economy.

I am actually getting tired of the argument that artists are too stupid to make educated decisions about the channels they use to distribute their art to the public.

Illegal downloads have nothing to do with streaming services. They existed before, and it is up to consumers to show respect for intellectual property. There are severe potential risks in downloading and owning stolen intellectual property. It's consumers thinking that way that are the problem, not streaming services that actually pay artists for every time their songs play.

I am not an advocate for artists streaming pay. The pay is the pay, if you don't like it, get off of the platform.

I'm just sharing an analysis of the current reality: If an artist wants to make money, understand and embrace the reality, the money is from shows not album sales.

 

[Somafunk]

I am not an advocate for artists streaming pay. The pay is the pay, if you don't like it, get off of the platform.

I'm just sharing an analysis of the current reality: If an artist wants to make money, understand and embrace the reality, the money is from shows not album sales.

Not necessarily, I know quite a few electronic and trad artists (instruments) who make a living from album and physical sales through a dedicated fan base on the likes of Bandcamp

 

[PristineSound]

Not necessarily, I know quite a few electronic and trad artists (instruments) who make a living from album and physical sales through a dedicated fan base on the likes of Bandcamp

Of course there are exceptions and ability to "make a living."

But most (and those who want to the big bucks) need to hit the road and perform live shows.

 

[pablolie]

Not necessarily, I know quite a few electronic and trad artists (instruments) who make a living from album and physical sales through a dedicated fan base on the likes of Bandcamp

The decision to go independent also has to do with artistic control. Nothing new there. You sign for a major label, they have a major say... and these days simply use replaceable big name artists they may discard at their whim, because they are just figureheads for a marketing experiment while it lasts. Remember Prince becoming The Symbol and such. Wasn't primarily about $$ (he'd made a ton with label support), was about artistic direction and control.

I buy from several artists on Bandcamp. Ottmar Liebert is an interesting example... but he is also a character. Used to be mainstream, he clearly got tired of the constant pressure and went independent in the end on Bandcamp. But his comfort level also shows in his current output, which seems repetitive, I am sorry to say as a long-time follower.

Steaming companies are no more evil than the radio stations that used to be the vehicle to promote music way back when...

 

[PristineSound]

Got a free trail with Tidal, once again, you simply cannot match Spotify's music discovery and recommendation engine capabilities.

I used to have Amazon Music sometimes back, I think they made some improvements, I will give that a try sometimes as well as Apple Music. But Spotify set the bar way too high with their music discovery and recommendation engine, unparallel in the industry thus far in my experience.

 

[Axo1989]

Got a free trail with Tidal, once again, you simply cannot match Spotify's music discovery and recommendation engine capabilities.

I used to have Amazon Music sometimes back, I think they made some improvements, I will give that a try sometimes as well as Apple Music. But Spotify set the bar way too high with their music discovery and recommendation engine, unparallel in the industry thus far in my experience.

You've made a few posts putting that view without elaboration, but I don't see that a quick trial of other streaming services is going to be an adequate test.

For example, I've used Apple Music since 2016. Used Tidal for less time but let it go when AM started offering lossless etc (and Tidal's turned out to be MQA for which I hadn't any requisite hardware). During that time I also used Spotify (I was part of my sister's Spotify group, she's part of my Apple group). The latter didn't benefit from as-frequent use and offered no discernible alacrity in discovery or recommendations (to the contrary, it seemed fairly shite—I didn't use any type of autoplay of course, that's just audio lobotomy).

I don't really consider that a valid test however. We have to control for care and feeding of any algorithms in play. And so on.

 

[Tell]

You've made a few posts putting that view without elaboration, but I don't see that a quick trial of other streaming services is going to be an adequate test.

For example, I've used Apple Music since 2016. Used Tidal for less time but let it go when AM started offering lossless etc (and Tidal's turned out to be MQA for which I hadn't any requisite hardware). During that time I also used Spotify (I was part of my sister's Spotify group, she's part of my Apple group). The latter didn't benefit from as-frequent use and offered no discernible alacrity in discovery or recommendations (to the contrary, it seemed fairly shite—I didn't use any type of autoplay of course, that's just audio lobotomy).

I don't really consider that a valid test however. We have to control for care and feeding of any algorithms in play. And so on.

My experience with Quboz was the same, for exampel listening to a playlist or an album and then having recommendations based on those keep on playing afterwards, except that those recommendations where very hit and miss. Give Spotify the same playlist or album and it will give so much better recommendations and I don't see how any feeding would help with that since the playlist or album is the feed for the recommendation.

 

[Axo1989]

My experience with Quboz was the same, for exampel listening to a playlist or an album and then having recommendations based on those keep on playing afterwards, except that those recommendations where very hit and miss. Give Spotify the same playlist or album and it will give so much better recommendations and I don't see how any feeding would help with that since the playlist or album is the feed for the recommendation.

Playlists and autoplay are definitely not my thing, matching an album is straightforward-ish.

But the claim regarding ‘unparalleled discovery’ is going to need playback history for recommending new releases, artists/groups, sub-genres and so on. That doesn’t happen in a week (let alone a single album or playlist).

 

[Tell]

Playlists and autoplay are definitely not my thing, matching an album is straightforward-ish.

But the claim regarding ‘unparalleled discovery’ is going to need my playback history for recommending new releases, artists/groups, sub-genres and so on. That doesn’t happen in a week (let alone a single album or playlist).

Yeah of course it needs more to be able to give good suggestions, but based on how it suggests based on albums and playlists I have serious doubts that the general recommendation algorithm will be as good as Spotify's no matter how much you feed it (unless they improve the algorithm of course).

 

[Axo1989]

Yeah of course it needs more to be able to give good suggestions, but based on how it suggests based on albums and playlists I have serious doubts that the general recommendation algorithm will be as good as Spotify's no matter how much you feed it (unless they improve the algorithm of course).

Speculation, obviously. Are you talking about Apple now or Quboz? The resource differences are significant.

My point however is that a valid comparison between any two streaming services would require equivalent initial status. If I based my assessment of Spotify on my low-usage experience of its discovery/recommendations I would also extrapolate that they would be shite.

Edit: per my last post, not only playing history but also saving to library and other behaviors I assume

 

[Tell]

Speculation, obviously. Are you talking about Apple now or Quboz? The resource differences are significant.

My point however is that a valid comparison between any two streaming services would require equivalent initial status. If I based my assessment of Spotify on my low-usage experience of its discovery/recommendations I would also extrapolate that they would be shite.

I don't see why my logic would be off here? I've heard lots of recommendations after a playlist or an album on Spotify and I know how good it is, and when trying the same with Qobuz it sometimes gave good recommendations while other times not good at all, and if it can't even handle that I doubt it can do better no matter how much I feed the algorithm with more music.

 

[Axo1989]

I don't see why my logic would be off here? I've heard lots of recommendations after a playlist or an album on Spotify and I know how good it is, and when trying the same with Qobuz it sometimes gave good recommendations while other times not good at all, and if it can't even handle that I doubt it can do better no matter how much I feed the algorithm with more music.

Ok I haven’t used Qobuz, compared it, speculated about it or even mentioned it (apart from asking/quoting you). Check my post #151 again (the one you first replied to).

I’d also suggest your thinking about recommendations from a single album is oversimplified. They are likely based on your listening history, the preferences of others with similar histories and so on.

 

[Tell]

Ok I haven’t used Qobuz, compared it, speculated about it or even mentioned it (apart from asking/quoting you). Check my post #151 again (the one you first replied to).

I’d also suggest your thinking about recommendations from a single album is oversimplified. They are likely based on your listening history, the preferences of others with similar histories and so on.

No you haven't, but I still wanted to share my experience with it since I doubt they handle recommendations from albums and playlists differently. Maybe they do, but to me that sounds like a strange tactic. I mean Spotify even manages to recommend tracks from the same artist in the same bpm, like Tipper for example makes hard bass music, chillout and ambient, and no matter what album or track I go from it never strays away from the genre but says with the artist and any similar artists creating very similar music. Qobuz never managed that at all and it sounded to me that other people had similar experience with Tidal.

 

[PristineSound]

Playlists and autoplay are definitely not my thing, matching an album is straightforward-ish.

But the claim regarding ‘unparalleled discovery’ is going to need playback history for recommending new releases, artists/groups, sub-genres and so on. That doesn’t happen in a week (let alone a single album or playlist).

1) I imported my Spotify playlists, that is history.

2) I paid and extra $1.99 to get an extra 30 days, so a total of 60 day trail, I'm on day 40.

3) You don't need history for song and artist radio.

 

[Axo1989]

No you haven't, but I still wanted to share my experience with it since I doubt they handle recommendations from albums and playlists differently. Maybe they do, but to me that sounds like a strange tactic. I mean Spotify even manages to recommend tracks from the same artist in the same bpm, like Tipper for example makes hard bass music, chillout and ambient, and no matter what album or track I go from it never strays away from the genre but says with the artist and any similar artists creating very similar music. Qobuz never managed that at all and it sounded to me that other people had similar experience with Tidal.

I didn't mean your posts on Qobuz weren't interesting, I just couldn't tell which service you were referring't when you said you had doubts that the 'general recommendation algorithm' will be as good as Spotify's.

On the latter's method, I found some discussion in the 'How to get good recommendations in Spotify' listed below under 'Similar threads' informative. See also the article 'The AI behind Spotify’s Discover Weekly' linked there by @HalSF. that suggests the thing you called an unlikely and 'strange tactic' is likely among the things they do (assuming you meant they don't 'handle differently' from Qobuz). The writing style is glib (maybe written via a chatbot) but not unbearable. So I also think it's likely that Qobuz doesn't do all those things (but I'm only guessing there). Of course I don't know exactly which methods/combinations Spotify uses to deliver each of the artist or album match, autoplay, radio and discovery features but it isn't a wild assumption that your listening history and matching to that of similar users is in play for much of that.