To monoblock or not to monoblock

[Matias]

There are stereo amplifiers with separate power supplies for each channel inside the same chassis. The only thing they share is the power inlet and mains cable. This is as good as monoblocks without paying 2 chassis.

 

[beren777]

The best thing about monoblocks in 2022 is that you can sell them and buy speaker stands.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

@beefkabob, there are exceptions to your statements, even in jest.
Because those Conrad Johnson monoblocks are just a special breed but for special circumstances. I'm jealous.

Wow, even Fremer found the CJ's expensive in 1999!!!

 

[pseudoid]

Wow, even Fremer found the CJ's expensive in 1999!!!

Wow! Just because some tightwad on youtube badmouthed the Ferrari GTC4Lusso because the price tag was $343k USD; does it make the Lusso something to NOT lust after?

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Wow! Just because some tightwad on youtube badmouthed the Ferrari GTC4Lusso because the price tag was $343k USD; does it make the Lusso something to NOT lust after?

As a major contributor and donor on ASR, you don't have to lust over any hifi!

 

[beefkabob]

@beefkabob, there are exceptions to your statements, even in jest.
Because those Conrad Johnson monoblocks are just a special breed but for special circumstances. I'm jealous.

I've not seen measurements of the CJs, but I don't expect there's any reason to spend so much on amps that perform so poorly.
Moderately interesting boxes, though.

"300 Watts rms from 30 Hz to 15 KHz at no more than 1.5 % THD into 4 ohms"

That's objectively not so impressive.

 

[dorakeg]

There are stereo amplifiers with separate power supplies for each channel inside the same chassis. The only thing they share is the power inlet and mains cable. This is as good as monoblocks without paying 2 chassis.

Yes, there are. I refer them as "dual monos". However, not all designs are like that. Unfortunately, such deisgns are mostly limited to higher end and more expensive brands/models.

Does this mean that they are just as good a monoblocks? Maybe but maybe not. Its more about over-engineering. Due to space limitation, its not possible to have a bigger transformer (sometimes separate transformers for different sections), higher capacitor reservoirs, limited number of output transistors etc. So under certain situations, it may "run out of breath" while the monoblock still able to keep going.

 

[pseudoid]

As a major contributor and donor on ASR, you don't have to lust over any hifi!

I have done my bidding over the decades in all types of hardware and have the t-shirts!

 

[OldHvyMec]

As I get older I'm caught between the old and the new. I know for the type of speaker I use and what I like to hear Cary valve
gear checks 7 of 10 of the boxes for me. Their mono-blocks as nice as they look and as good as they can sound, I still prefer the older
model stereo V12Rs. I have tried everything Cary has. I keep going back to a pair of stereo V12Rs with EL34 Ruby's and Blackburn signal
valves. At 68 my ears are very prone to fatigue.

The new GaN1 or most of the newer pass equipment don't fry my ears with the transducers I use. I can love what I hear but the measure
of tolerance my ear/brain can take from some solid state amps is "how long can I listen"? The fact many SS amps wear me out in less
than 30 minutes is a fact for ME.

I actually know why I like certain valve gear and some may not. Ralph from Atmosphere explained it to a group of us several years ago
quit eloquently. The voicing (transformers bandwidth), valves, the amount of distortion, and second order harmonics = what many like
to hear. There was more to it but that was the largest part for me.

I use mono blocks, stereo, or 3 channel with their own PS. It doesn't matter who does what as long as I follow the basic rules above.
If I was going by how the amps specked out vs how they sound with my speakers and setup, SOME might not even listen.
I won't continue listening to anything else. My Ears, My Brain, My Rules. LOL BUT at least I know what I'm listening too, why I listen
to it is a different story, could be a brain injury for all I know.

Regards

 

[beefkabob]

As I get older I'm caught between the old and the new. I know for the type of speaker I use and what I like to hear Cary valve
gear checks 7 of 10 of the boxes for me. Their mono-blocks as nice as they look and as good as they can sound, I still prefer the older
model stereo V12Rs. I have tried everything Cary has. I keep going back to a pair of stereo V12Rs with EL34 Ruby's and Blackburn signal
valves. At 68 my ears are very prone to fatigue.

The new GaN1 or most of the newer pass equipment don't fry my ears with the transducers I use. I can love what I hear but the measure
of tolerance my ear/brain can take from some solid state amps is "how long can I listen"? The fact many SS amps wear me out in less
than 30 minutes is a fact for ME.

I actually know why I like certain valve gear and some may not. Ralph from Atmosphere explained it to a group of us several years ago
quit eloquently. The voicing (transformers bandwidth), valves, the amount of distortion, and second order harmonics = what many like
to hear. There was more to it but that was the largest part for me.

I use mono blocks, stereo, or 3 channel with their own PS. It doesn't matter who does what as long as I follow the basic rules above.
If I was going by how the amps specked out vs how they sound with my speakers and setup, SOME might not even listen.
I won't continue listening to anything else. My Ears, My Brain, My Rules. LOL BUT at least I know what I'm listening too, why I listen
to it is a different story, could be a brain injury for all I know.

Regards

Why not just software to eq out the frequencies that irritate you and add in some harmonics? The run quality solid state hardware. It's orders of magnitude cheaper, you'll have actual control, and everything will sound far better.

 

[pseudoid]

Why not just software to eq out the frequencies that irritate you and add in some harmonics? The run quality solid state hardware. It's orders of magnitude cheaper, you'll have actual control, and everything will sound far better.

Just by reading @OldHvyMec post; I readily figured why not software eq for him.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

I have done my bidding over the decades in all types of hardware and have the t-shirts!

Truthfully, that blue background, and flickering VU needles always has an allure! Although, as I last saw them, in American Horror Story, not sure about the vibe, now!

 

[Waxx]

I also don't think that they are by definition better. It used to be like that with tube amps with non regulated psu's, but a regulated psu should avoid those problems where one channel could influence the current of the other. Now it's more how they are implemented that counts. And if they still claim it's better, than it is that the psu is not wel designed or using obsolete ways of designing (non regulated linear psu's).

Practically it's has it's use, to keep the amp close to the speaker, to avoid cabling routing issues and some more. But pure on sound with modern wel designed devices it's a preference, not a technical advantage. I myself use both monoblocks and stereo amplifiers. And i don't think the monoblocks are better because they are monoblocks. It's just that that specific amp works better as monoblock because of the specific design, while my stereo amps are good working as stereo amplifiers because they were designed like that. It's all in the implementation.

Assuming the amp designer is competent, modern units do not suffer crosstalk problems when sharing a power supply and chassis. It is a good thing that multiple channels share a power supply, when one channel is lightly loaded, another can draw extra current.

Some people are correctly stating that monoblocks allow closer co-location of the speakers and amplification, reducing line noise and signal loss. However, the logical conclusion of this thinking is just integrating the amplification into the speaker itself.

Integrating amps in speakers then have other issues. Speakers tend to survive longer than amps, so when the amp dies the speaker, that is still in good working order but the amp, becomes useless. So i never do it, even when using plate amps, they get their own cabinets.

 

[anphex]

I remember the Hypex NC400 DIY review where to arguibly too small PSU caused some additional SINAD in a stereo block. I guess that's no problem of you use a heftier SMPS that has more than enough to power all the modules.

 

[MattHooper]

Wow, even Fremer found the CJ's expensive in 1999!!!

Yeah, that's why most of what I own is second hand, including those CJ Premier 12s.

I've not seen measurements of the CJs, but I don't expect there's any reason to spend so much on amps that perform so poorly.
Moderately interesting boxes, though.

"300 Watts rms from 30 Hz to 15 KHz at no more than 1.5 % THD into 4 ohms"

That's objectively not so impressive.

Indeed. If I were looking for strict neutrality I wouldn't buy the Premier 12s.

I'd been using a lower power CJ MV55 tube amp (and tried other tube amps of similar power) but felt I needed more power with the variety of speakers I was having through my listening room. I bought the Premier 12s based mostly on Fremer's review and found Fremer's descriptions to be eerily accurate to what I heard (and continue to hear) from the Premier 12s, vs the other solid state and tube amps I tried out. Absolutely bang on. It's one of the reasons I still can get something out of some subjective reviews - the "but what does it SOUND like?" aspect.

(And even if, in the end, the "sound" I hear amounts to some perceptual bias effect, I'm ok with that since it has been a very robust and reliable effect for the over 20 years I've used the amps. Utterly delighted with them).

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Yeah, that's why most of what I own is second hand, including those CJ Premier 12s.



Indeed. If I were looking for strict neutrality I wouldn't buy the Premier 12s.

I'd been using a lower power CJ MV55 tube amp (and tried other tube amps of similar power) but felt I needed more power with the variety of speakers I was having through my listening room. I bought the Premier 12s based mostly on Fremer's review and found Fremer's descriptions to be eerily accurate to what I heard (and continue to hear) from the Premier 12s, vs the other solid state and tube amps I tried out. Absolutely bang on. It's one of the reasons I still can get something out of some subjective reviews - the "but what does it SOUND like?" aspect.

(And even if, in the end, the "sound" I hear amounts to some perceptual bias effect, I'm ok with that since it has been a very robust and reliable effect for the over 20 years I've used the amps. Utterly delighted with them).

Purchased second hand Matt, can I ask what sort of costs you have needed to outlay on them since?
I ask because I have long looked at Quad tube amplifiers.

 

[beefkabob]

Indeed. If I were looking for strict neutrality I wouldn't buy the Premier 12s.

I'd been using a lower power CJ MV55 tube amp (and tried other tube amps of similar power) but felt I needed more power with the variety of speakers I was having through my listening room. I bought the Premier 12s based mostly on Fremer's review and found Fremer's descriptions to be eerily accurate to what I heard (and continue to hear) from the Premier 12s, vs the other solid state and tube amps I tried out. Absolutely bang on. It's one of the reasons I still can get something out of some subjective reviews - the "but what does it SOUND like?" aspect.

(And even if, in the end, the "sound" I hear amounts to some perceptual bias effect, I'm ok with that since it has been a very robust and reliable effect for the over 20 years I've used the amps. Utterly delighted with them).

I honestly don't understand why you would want musical gear that wasn't neutral. I understand and support room EQ. I understand theoretically EQing for a badly mastered song, though I'd not be interested in changing my EQ for every track or even every album. I understand pumping up the bass for older recordings that lack it, especially if played in a public event. What I generally don't understand is purposefully choosing equipment with lots of audible distortion. It just muddies up the music.

Well, I can understand one situation for loving distortion in music playback. My friend has done a lot of production work, and a lot of the music he loves is poorly produced, which means he hears all sorts of errors in the recordings, all of which he finds distracting. By upping the distortion with low quality gear, he can hide some of the irritating details of the production and just listen to the music. Fortunately for him, poor sound reproduction can be found for cheap.

 

[MattHooper]

Purchased second hand Matt, can I ask what sort of costs you have needed to outlay on them since?
I ask because I have long looked at Quad tube amplifiers.

My local CJ importer went over them some time years ago (I think it ended up being a fuse), can't remember the cost. Otherwise it's just tube replacement. The input tubes went 22 years with only one tube having to be replaced - something like $40. Otherwise it was re-tube the power tubes, which have lasted quite a long time. Bought late 90's, re-tubed around 2008, then again around 2015, and then just for fun tried some different tubes last year, though the old ones still worked.

Being monos they take 8 power tubes, so that's a disadvantage for tube monoblocks, sometimes double the tube costs. I think it was around $700 each re-tube.
But tubes are currently more expensive now mostly due to the war. I stocked up before prices went nuts. (Though they seem to be coming back down for lots of tubes).

 

[MattHooper]

I honestly don't understand why you would want musical gear that wasn't neutral. I understand and support room EQ. I understand theoretically EQing for a badly mastered song, though I'd not be interested in changing my EQ for every track or even every album. I understand pumping up the bass for older recordings that lack it, especially if played in a public event. What I generally don't understand is purposefully choosing equipment with lots of audible distortion. It just muddies up the music.

Well, I can understand one situation for loving distortion in music playback. My friend has done a lot of production work, and a lot of the music he loves is poorly produced, which means he hears all sorts of errors in the recordings, all of which he finds distracting. By upping the distortion with low quality gear, he can hide some of the irritating details of the production and just listen to the music. Fortunately for him, poor sound reproduction can be found for cheap.

I've been asked this many times

I know that my approach is a little different from most here on ASR, regarding what I want out of my system.

I had a parametric digital EQ in my system for decades. I pretty much never used it. Why? For one thing I did not find I could exactly duplicate the sound of the CJ amps using the EQ (I tried a few times, out of curiosity, with some solid state amps like Bryston). But the main thing is the CJs gave me EXACTLY the sound I was looking for (which I do not find to "muddle up the music"). I have had no need or desire to fiddle with EQ controls. I enjoy everything I play on the system. The CJs are a plug-and-play solution for the sound I want. Plus, I love the concept of tube amps, the history behind them and the aesthetics (most SS amps I find unsightly or just boring). So they satisfy me in all regards.

 

[egellings]

Mono blocks will cost more than a stereo version because with mono blocks, you are buying two power supplies and two cases. Some amps, though, like the Bryston 4Bst do have 2 separate power supplies in them, all in a single case. As for tube distortion, tube amps can have a lot of that, such as in the SET types, or they can have distortions that are below audibility, such as in push pull designs that use negative feedback judiciously.