To DAC or not to DAC?

[Hattrick]

Good day,
This topic is for those whom own AVR's with built in chip DACS whom the user also uses for digital audio playback. Some AVR's have a DSP/DAC bypass which is great for those who one like to have external analog devices with the ability to be direct analog and or for those whom would like to bring into the mix an external DAC for their Digital audio media then route to a analog in in by pass.

My question is. Has anyone done this per adding an external DAC for digital audio such as CD or streaming then connected it to the analog inputs of their AVR? If so, what were one's findings? Example I own a Arcam AVR 850 which I can utilize an external DAC and input it into an analog input and bypass the DAC chipset. In addition utilise the DSP or use Direct bypassing the DSP as well.

 

[voodooless]

What would be the point. One of the main USP for an AVR is room correction and that happens in the digital domain anyway.

Keep your money!

 

[Hattrick]

What would be the point. One of the main USP for an AVR is room correction and that happens in the digital domain anyway.

Keep your money!

Not sure I understand you point? From what I was told from Arcam the Direct feature by passes all the digital path within the AVR. When using the analog inputs in Direct mode. Thus the signal goes to volume side of the preamp and goes directly to L&R channel amplifier. That being said, using an external DAC with my AVR to an analog input in Direct would be the same as using a DAC plugged into an analog pre in lets say a two channel preamp or integrated amp.

That being said then adding an external DAC would provide a different D/A conversion than the internal DAC of the AVR 850. To that point is to find out if anyone has done this and their findings of the comparison of the sound.

 

[voodooless]

Not sure I understand you point?

The point is: why do you want to bypass the single most sound quality defining feature the thing has?

 

[Hattrick]

To hear if an external DAC option used with music digital sources will outperform the internal DAC in sound quality playback.

 

[Beershaun]

It won’t if you are using pure direct mode. Because the room correction software and bass management software will also be bypassed. And these will have a much bigger impact on the sound than changing the DAC.

And if you aren’t using pure direct mode, then it won’t improve the sound either. Because the analog input would then get converted back to digital for room correction and bass management processing, the sent to the onboard dac for conversion back to analog to send out to your speakers.

 

[Hattrick]

It won’t if you are using pure direct mode. Because the room correction software and bass management software will also be bypassed. And these will have a much bigger impact on the sound than changing the DAC.

And if you aren’t using pure direct mode, then it won’t improve the sound either. Because the analog input would then get converted back to digital for room correction and bass management processing, the sent to the onboard dac for conversion back to analog to send out to your speakers.

Almost all 2 channel systems do not have DSP being used for audio playback. Almost all Integrated amps and or separates do not have DSP. Thus, my intention is to replicate this in Direct Bypass in two channel stereo with my AVR. Thus I want to know if anyone has done this with an external DAC and their findings. I own two AVR in two different rooms and have Pure Direct availability.

 

[Plcamp]

Almost all 2 channel systems do not have DSP being used for audio playback. Almost all Integrated amps and or separates do not have DSP. Thus, my intention is to replicate this in Direct Bypass in two channel stereo with my AVR. Thus I want to know if anyone has done this with an external DAC and their findings. I own two AVR in two different rooms and have Pure Direct availability.

I have not tried this specifically, but by using an external power amp with my Yamaha 3030 receiver I would say the biggest difference vs same amp driven directly by E30 DAC is noise. It’s just dead quiet with an E30 DAC. I have doubts you would detect much else different, even if the e30 measures better than receiver internal DAC.

The 3030 power amps can’t handle sub-4-ohm woofers well, and the preamps don’t output 2v unless you tweak gain up in the internal dsp…those kinds of issues have driven me to look for a new DAC to use as a preamp.

If these Yamaha receivers would simply output a toslink digital signal independent of which digital input selected, it would be easy to bolt on a good DAC and drive a power amp. But I guess copy protection paranoia caused them to not permit that. Curious, because TV’s do permit it and provide toslink out.

 

[nerdstrike]

Presumably you have seen Amir's test of the AVR850: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/arcam-avr850-home-theater-avr-review.14039/

Depending on settings the integral dac seems to offer 85-98 dB of range. This can be improved upon by the current top level options but not necessarily to the ear (depending on how awesome you are). The power output is also plentiful for 2-channel, although the indicated SNR+D is not fantastic.

If you absolutely must hear an improvement I think I'd suggest a separate amp and dac would be the way to get an _audible_ improvement, but even that can be phantoms of the mind.

For my sins I'm using Arcam's SA30 as an all-in-one. My CD player lacks a digital out, so it's doing something akin to what you suggest. Invariably I have found I prefer to accept the losses caused by ADC so I can get the Dirac profile on CD music. It makes such a nice improvement even though I'm surely plunging my SNR+D into the long grass... YMMV.

Save your money for another day? Speakers have the biggest impact on your experience in any case when everything else is working properly...

 

[Rednaxela]

To hear if an external DAC option used with music digital sources will outperform the internal DAC in sound quality playback.

A million years ago I performed a similar test by hooking up a digital source both analogue and digitally to my AVR in PD mode. Then I would switch back and forth between the two inputs while playing my favourite test tracks.

From this experience I would strongly advise 1) to level match the two sources, 2) to not do the switching yourself, and 3) to make sure you have no way of knowing which one of the two inputs is playing at any given moment.

Otherwise you’re either gonna prefer the loudest one or the one you hope to prefer.

HTH.

 

[Hattrick]

A million years ago I performed a similar test by hooking up a digital source both analogue and digitally to my AVR in PD mode. Then I would switch back and forth between the two inputs while playing my favourite test tracks.

From this experience I would strongly advise 1) to level match the two sources, 2) to not do the switching yourself, and 3) to make sure you have no way of knowing which one of the two inputs is playing at any given moment.

Otherwise you’re either gonna prefer the loudest one or the one you hope to prefer.

HTH.

Thank you! This is what my thread was all about. So that being said when you level matched the two what did you experience. "Oh wow this external DAC is amazing?" I am guessing you didn't correct?

 

[Hattrick]

Presumably you have seen Amir's test of the AVR850: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/arcam-avr850-home-theater-avr-review.14039/

Depending on settings the integral dac seems to offer 85-98 dB of range. This can be improved upon by the current top level options but not necessarily to the ear (depending on how awesome you are). The power output is also plentiful for 2-channel, although the indicated SNR+D is not fantastic.

If you absolutely must hear an improvement I think I'd suggest a separate amp and dac would be the way to get an _audible_ improvement, but even that can be phantoms of the mind.

For my sins I'm using Arcam's SA30 as an all-in-one. My CD player lacks a digital out, so it's doing something akin to what you suggest. Invariably I have found I prefer to accept the losses caused by ADC so I can get the Dirac profile on CD music. It makes such a nice improvement even though I'm surely plunging my SNR+D into the long grass... YMMV.

Save your money for another day? Speakers have the biggest impact on your experience in any case when everything else is working properly...

I have not tried this specifically, but by using an external power amp with my Yamaha 3030 receiver I would say the biggest difference vs same amp driven directly by E30 DAC is noise. It’s just dead quiet with an E30 DAC. I have doubts you would detect much else different, even if the e30 measures better than receiver internal DAC.

The 3030 power amps can’t handle sub-4-ohm woofers well, and the preamps don’t output 2v unless you tweak gain up in the internal dsp…those kinds of issues have driven me to look for a new DAC to use as a preamp.

If these Yamaha receivers would simply output a toslink digital signal independent of which digital input selected, it would be easy to bolt on a good DAC and drive a power amp. But I guess copy protection paranoia caused them to not permit that. Curious, because TV’s do permit it and provide toslink out.

Thank you. This whole idea was more of an interest question. Being there are quite a few DACS to purchase today being ladder, or chip with a very wide range of pricing. I was curious if any of these being of which are considered "Higher End" sound far better than the DAC in AVR 850 for digital music.

 

[DVDdoug]

With electronics, there are only 3 characteristics/parameters that affect sound quality - Frequency response, noise, and distortion. (The official ASR measurements & reviews combine noise and distortion.)

If the DAC isn't broken all of these should be better than human hearing. If you're using a regular computer soundcard, you can sometimes get noise and then you can benefit from a separate DAC.

With other solid-state electronics (amplifiers, etc.) noise can sometimes be an issue but frequency response and distortion are almost always better than hearing (unless you over-drive an amplifier into distortion). I had an AVR with audible noise when I was a within a couple of feet from the speakers, but it didn't have HDMI so it's been replaced. There's always some noise.

The thing about noise is that you either can hear it or you can't, or you can hear if it's better or worse. It doesn't require any careful listening to identify.

Speakers and headphones almost always have audible frequency response variations. And with speakers you get acoustic-room effects, and headphones interact differently on different ears and/or they can fit different people differently (some people might get a better seal for more bass, etc.). But with passive speakers & headphones there is no (electrical) noise. Of course more-sensitive ("louder") headphones will make any noise more audible. Same thing with more-sensitive speakers.

See Audiophoolery.

And the HydrogenAudio forum is focused on scientific, blind, level-matched ABX Listening Tests

 

[Beershaun]

Thank you. This whole idea was more of an interest question. Being there are quite a few DACS to purchase today being ladder, or chip with a very wide range of pricing. I was curious if any of these being of which are considered "Higher End" sound far better than the DAC in AVR 850 for digital music.

They may, but you won't be able to judge that by running the dac through the AVR as I mentioned. You should set up a separate DAC and amp as @nerdstrike mentioned. Since you have all the pieces just go for it and try it yourself.

 

[GalZohar]

If turning all digital processing off using the internal DAC makes the sound noticeably worse for you, then you probably shouldn't expect to get any of that back by using an external DAC, as long as the internal DAC isn't absolute crap. So I would start with that test.

 

[Hattrick]

With electronics, there are only 3 characteristics/parameters that affect sound quality - Frequency response, noise, and distortion. (The official ASR measurements & reviews combine noise and distortion.)

If the DAC isn't broken all of these should be better than human hearing. If you're using a regular computer soundcard, you can sometimes get noise and then you can benefit from a separate DAC.

With other solid-state electronics (amplifiers, etc.) noise can sometimes be an issue but frequency response and distortion are almost always better than hearing (unless you over-drive an amplifier into distortion). I had an AVR with audible noise when I was a within a couple of feet from the speakers, but it didn't have HDMI so it's been replaced. There's always some noise.

The thing about noise is that you either can hear it or you can't, or you can hear if it's better or worse. It doesn't require any careful listening to identify.

Speakers and headphones almost always have audible frequency response variations. And with speakers you get acoustic-room effects, and headphones interact differently on different ears and/or they can fit different people differently (some people might get a better seal for more bass, etc.). But with passive speakers & headphones there is no (electrical) noise. Of course more-sensitive ("louder") headphones will make any noise more audible. Same thing with more-sensitive speakers.

See Audiophoolery.

And the HydrogenAudio forum is focused on scientific, blind, level-matched ABX Listening Tests

Thank you. I understand what you say... That being said my intention was to use Headphones for my testing if I do testing. I was hoping to get feedback from one who did this test to find out their findings. Sounds like many have not done this most likely they like the music audio of their AVR or have two systems.

 

[Rednaxela]

Thank you! This is what my thread was all about. So that being said when you level matched the two what did you experience. "Oh wow this external DAC is amazing?" I am guessing you didn't correct?

Sadly I was unable to level match at the time. (Are you by the way?)

One of the inputs seemed to sound a bit better, but also slightly louder. Which made it difficult to tell if it was really the better one. I must add that I found it really hard to pick the better one by ear in the first place.

So all in all the whole exercise was a mess, and nothing meaningful could be derived from it. I ended up using the connection that gave me the most peace of mind.

 

[Hattrick]

They may, but you won't be able to judge that by running the dac through the AVR as I mentioned. You should set up a separate DAC and amp as @nerdstrike mentioned. Since you have all the pieces just go for it and try it yourself.

The DAC would only bring in analog conversion to the analog inputs of the AVR which would be listed via Pure Direct through headphones first then speakers. Then compared with internal AVR DAC with DSP set to Digital Stereo and no room correction. The test has to be with the AVR only that is the whole point.

 

[Hattrick]

If turning all digital processing off using the internal DAC makes the sound noticeably worse for you, then you probably shouldn't expect to get any of that back by using an external DAC, as long as the internal DAC isn't absolute crap. So I would start with that test.

My AVR internal DAC sounds great for digital everything. My interest is if an external higher end DAC just for digital music through Pure Direct using my AVR would sound substantially better.

 

[Hattrick]

Sadly I was unable to level match at the time. (Are you by the way?)

One of the inputs seemed to sound a bit better, but also slightly louder. Which made it difficult to tell if it was really the better one. I must add that I found it really hard to pick the better one by ear in the first place.

So all in all the whole exercise was a mess, and nothing meaningful could be derived from it. I ended up using the connection that gave me the most peace of mind.

Thanks for the update. It sounds like your test didn't work correctly for the above mentioned. I have no issues with any inputs and outputs. I don't have a external DAC yet.... I was hoping to find someone whom may have tried this successfully with an AVR and their findings. I am thinking I may have to do this on my own and then create another thread with the findings.