Time to upgrade (with some limitations)

[Sergo72]

Hello! I’m looking for advice on choosing a system for a relatively temporary location. This limits both a) the budget and overall scale of the system, and b) the available options due to local stock and the difficult logistics of ordering from abroad.
At home I have an older setup: Denon PMA 2000se + Denon DCD 1650 + Quad 21L. To be honest, over time the sound has started to feel a bit woolly, and while the bass is voluminous, it’s sluggish — not fast or tight.
Given the constraints above plus the room size (14 m²), my speaker choices are limited to the KEF Q Concerto Meta or Dynaudio Evoke 10, combined with one of the following:
1. Bluesound Node Nano (transport only) + Electrocompaniet ECI 80D (internal DAC)
2. Bluesound Node Nano (transport) + Quad Platina integrated (internal DAC)
3. Eversolo DMP-A8 + Quad Artera Stereo
4. Bluesound Node Nano (transport) + Laiv Crescendo Verse DAC/preamp + Quad Artera Stereo
Or should I risk and go for 5. D class combo Bluesound Nano (transport) + Laiv Crescendo Verte (DAC, pre) + 2 x Laiv Crescendo Chorus (mono)?
Coming from the PMA 2000 at home, I’m looking here for more micro-detail, a deeper and wider 3D soundstage, faster attack, and tight, visceral bass.
Music I listen to includes: Marcin, Hara Noda (e.g. Wood and Skin), Geoff Castellucci, Sivert Høyem, Jogger (e.g. Nephicide), Nils Lofgren Band, Diana Krall, Jacintha, Yello (e.g. Kiss the Cloud)… “Fat”, deep, richly instrumented and vocal music.
What would you recommend? As mentioned, given my current location, the chance to audition gear before buying is quite limited.
would you recommend? As mentioned, given my current location, the chance to audition gear before buying is quite limited.
Hope for your kind advices,

 

[Redacted]

Why such limitations on kit list?
Your sound is probably mostly down to speakers and room.
If you want a new amp look at class D, unless you've got a big budget.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi @Sergo72

Welcome to ASR... Good amps have no sound, the Denon is likely a good amp. It has no sound you feed it signals it send these back to the speakers .. That is the job of an amp and the Denon likely performs adequately .. IOW it will be transparent to most ears on the planet, including yours. Perhaps same from the DCD1650, unless these are broken .. Else they just .. sound ..

Now you have the speakers. I don't know about these Quad 21 Lat .. let's assume for now, these are OK, then you have the room. You could have the perfect, bestest speaker ever made and you will learn that most rooms distort, to a great extent what comes from the (for now assuming) perfect speaker .. We have some abilities (Human physiology and psychology) that allow us to hear "through the room", but it comes a point where you may start to really hearing what is wrong with the sound that reaches your ears... You need to address that. There are ways.. the best way to find those ways ), is to measure ... And it has gotten cheap lately: $125 later (miniDSP-UMik-1), you can measure to an astonishingly precise level... The real issues, and those have cost in term of time: You need to learn to measure, nope!.. not that easy, You will go to a rather steep learning curve ... then another steep curve to learn how to interpret, then finally another , perhaps, steeper curve to learn how to apply corrective measures ...

Going toward your list, could be an expensive and not satisfying proposition .. Long term. At first new system! New Sound .. Love it then .. nahh !.. then you go through the merry round of changing things ... new amp, new CD, new DAC ... Not new sound ..

and you may need to drop as quickly as you can those audiophiles notions or "micro"-details "faster" attacks , the sooner the better...es ...

Stay . Learn. You will be rewarded ... or you go buy things from your list.. Your choice.. Your money

 

[Sergo72]

Hi @Sergo72

Welcome to ASR... Good amps have no sound, the Denon is likely a good amp. It has no sound you feed it signals it send these back to the speakers .. That is the job of an amp and the Denon likely performs adequately .. IOW it will be transparent to most ears on the planet, including yours. Perhaps same from the DCD1650, unless these are broken .. Else they just .. sound ..

Now you have the speakers. I don't know about these Quad 21 Lat .. let's assume for now, these are OK, then you have the room. You could have the perfect, bestest speaker ever made and you will learn that most rooms distort, to a great extent what comes from the (for now assuming) perfect speaker .. We have some abilities (Human physiology and psychology) that allow us to hear "through the room", but it comes a point where you may start to really hearing what is wrong with the sound that reaches your ears... You need to address that. There are ways.. the best way to find those ways ), is to measure ... And it has gotten cheap lately: $125 later (miniDSP-UMik-1), you can measure to an astonishingly precise level... The real issues, and those have cost in term of time: You need to learn to measure, nope!.. not that easy, You will go to a rather steep learning curve ... then another steep curve to learn how to interpret, then finally another , perhaps, steeper curve to learn how to apply corrective measures ...

Going toward your list, could be an expensive and not satisfying proposition .. Long term. At first new system! New Sound .. Love it then .. nahh !.. then you go through the merry round of changing things ... new amp, new CD, new DAC ... Not new sound ..

and you may need to drop as quickly as you can those audiophiles notions or "micro"-details "faster" attacks , the sooner the better...es ...

Stay . Learn. You will be rewarded ... or you go buy things from your list.. Your choice.. Your money

Thank you for your reply! Of course I’m not a one who will be telling stories about air, soul and other things in sounds I hear from my audio system. But I definitely hear the difference in terms of somewhat “warm” and “dry” sounds (the same music, different systems), loose and tight bass and so on. As for micro details I mean first of all for instance sounds of mechanical parts of instruments which come together with the sounds of music themselves - and which form the atmosphere of live orchestra before me. And yes it depends first of all on the recording itself - e.g. Nils Frahm “Solo” 2015 album is specifically made so that all the mechanical sounds of his piano are precisely heard. And through different systems you can hear that background with - let’s say - different intensity.
As for my Denons - they are at my home thousands km away from my current location and yes somewhat broken (at least the capacitors seem to have degraded due to age, causing crackling sounds and sudden drops/jumps in volume).

 

[FrantzM]

May I suggest a fine, inexpensive, powerful and transparent audio electronics chain?

You will get speakers recommendations from people here ... hear me here
Wiim Ultra DAC, Streamer Preamp EQ/DRC ...................$350 or equivalent Euros... Almost same likely
Fosi Mono V3 pair ....................................................................$300 or ...

Superlative System. Read the Fosi mono Review and the Wiim Ultra review

Add speakers ... CD player if you want to ..
Done <$1000 Euros you have $3K left to buy speakers ... since you were going to buy an Electrocompaniet ... something ...

 

[Sergo72]

May I suggest a fine, inexpensive, powerful and transparent audio electronics chain?

You will get speakers recommendations from people here ... hear me here
Wiim Ultra DAC, Streamer Preamp EQ/DRC ...................$350 or equivalent Euros... Almost same likely
Fosi Mono V3 pair ....................................................................$300 or ...

Superlative System. Read the Fosi mono Review and the Wiim Ultra review

Add speakers ... CD player if you want to ..
Done <$1000 Euros you have $3K left to buy speakers ... since you were going to buy an Electrocompaniet ... something ...

So the speakers are the key and could - must? - be much pricier than other parts of the system? Yes, my budget is limited to the cost of the combos mentioned in my list - no Macintosh or Luxman or Accuphase. Only entry level Electrocompaniet. Thus should I really really go downstairs in the “grade” of DAC and amp (towards those chi-fi?) but invest first of all in speakers? Meaning my 14 sq. m room - and chip Fosi/Topping - within my budget it could be (what I have in stores here) MA Gold 100 6G, B&W 705 S3, MA Studio 89, KEF Q R3 Meta… I’m serious - would there really be no mismatch in case of Fosi/Topping with such speakers? And would it be really the most effective realization of my budget?
***
Someone had asked why the list is so limited, but I wrote in the very first post here I have limitations because of the local stock and very difficult logistics in case of delivery from abroad…

 

[Redacted]

So the speakers are the key and could - must? -

You also said your amp was essentially past its sell-by date - "somewhat broken (at least the capacitors seem to have degraded due to age, causing crackling sounds and sudden drops/jumps in volume".

Which country are you in? It seems there is no issue getting Bluesound or Eversolo from what you say.

 

[Sergo72]

You also said your amp was essentially past its sell-by date - "somewhat broken (at least the capacitors seem to have degraded due to age, causing crackling sounds and sudden drops/jumps in volume".

Which country are you in? It seems there is no issue getting Bluesound or Eversolo from what you say.

Now I am in Laos. For next three - four years at least. So the stocks - only what I mentioned in the list. Some things could be bought in Thailand.
And my Denons - they are at home, thousands km away from here)

 

[Gregm]

Good advice on electronics above: I too would urge you to focus on choosing the speakers you like best for your room. We listen through the speakers... THEN, you can go for any decent class D amplifier that drives said speakers. (There are plenty of speaker measurements on this site if you want to get an idea of speaker data). In choosing speakers you need to factor in your room, so choose speakers you like & narrow those down to speakers you like & fit in your room!

It's easier this way rather than worrying about which speaker-amp combo will sound the best. You can rest assured that any little amp (say a Fosi, or any Purifi based, or hypex...) will always remain useful even if you decide to go for that Electro in the future! I.e. you won;t be wasting your money. And most will easily drive most reasonably sized speakers: the subjective perception of "impact, of micro details, visceral bass" usually refers to extended frequency response (no problem for these amps), high frequencies (6-10kHz linearity), current capability (esp no problem with these devices), and low, stable (characteristic) output impedance. None of these amps suffer in those domains...

 

[RandomEar]

Thank you for your reply! Of course I’m not a one who will be telling stories about air, soul and other things in sounds I hear from my audio system. But I definitely hear the difference in terms of somewhat “warm” and “dry” sounds (the same music, different systems), loose and tight bass and so on. As for micro details I mean first of all for instance sounds of mechanical parts of instruments which come together with the sounds of music themselves - and which form the atmosphere of live orchestra before me. And yes it depends first of all on the recording itself - e.g. Nils Frahm “Solo” 2015 album is specifically made so that all the mechanical sounds of his piano are precisely heard. And through different systems you can hear that background with - let’s say - different intensity.
As for my Denons - they are at my home thousands km away from my current location and yes somewhat broken (at least the capacitors seem to have degraded due to age, causing crackling sounds and sudden drops/jumps in volume).

I'm sure you and all your friends are convinced you can hear those differences between amps and possibly even pre-amps and DACs. However, you have to ask yourself: Did you test in a way that you can actually be sure of that? Because when tested correctly - level-matched, blind and ideally with instant switching between sources/devices, people have failed to differentiate pretty mediocre amps 40 years ago (p. 78ff). Casual listening will not give you reliable results when comparing HiFi devices - in contrast, it will lead you to incorrect conclusions and often create the impression of differences where there are none.

"Micro-detail, a deeper and wider 3D soundstage, faster attack, and tight, visceral bass" are not something DACs, pre-amps or amps can influence, unless they include DSP functionality or - in case of amps - simply lack the power achieve the SPL you are looking for. These impressions of sound are determined 80% by what is in the recording and maybe 20% by your speakers and room.

So the common recommendation here on ASR is the correct one once again: Invest in room correction / EQ, get a measurement microphone and see what you can do with your current setup. If you are not happy with the results even with room correction, add a subwoofer. If that isn't enough, look into getting different speakers or - in case your problems are isolated to the bass region and the sub didn't solve them - do some room treatment. If your amp lacks power, get one with at least 4x the output.

 

[Sergo72]

I'm sure you and all your friends are convinced you can hear those differences between amps and possibly even pre-amps and DACs. However, you have to ask yourself: Did you test in a way that you can actually be sure of that? Because when tested correctly - level-matched, blind and ideally with instant switching between sources/devices, people have failed to differentiate pretty mediocre amps 40 years ago (p. 78ff). Casual listening will not give you reliable results when comparing HiFi devices - in contrast, it will lead you to incorrect conclusions and often create the impression of differences where there are none.

"Micro-detail, a deeper and wider 3D soundstage, faster attack, and tight, visceral bass" are not something DACs, pre-amps or amps can influence, unless they include DSP functionality or - in case of amps - simply lack the power achieve the SPL you are looking for. These impressions of sound are determined 80% by what is in the recording and maybe 20% by your speakers and room.

So the common recommendation here on ASR is the correct one once again: Invest in room correction / EQ, get a measurement microphone and see what you can do with your current setup. If you are not happy with the results even with room correction, add a subwoofer. If that isn't enough, look into getting different speakers or - in case your problems are isolated to the bass region and the sub didn't solve them - do some room treatment. If your amp lacks power, get one with at least 4x the output.

No, my home room and home system (where I can implement your instructions))) are thousands km away from me))) I’m for the next 3-4 years in the new location without my audio equipment so I am buying a new system - and ready and would like - to buy the best one I can afford now. So my budget is going along the list of equipment they have here in their stock (or I can somehow import from neighboring Thailand). And after I buy (meaning also my working cabinet of 14 square m) I can fulfill the part of your instructions dealing with the room correction. But until I buy a new system I just cannot do what you are advising)))
So anyway the first step is to buy a new system about what I’m seeking for the help of the community- not about room correction)))

 

[Cote Dazur]

But I definitely hear the difference in terms of somewhat “warm” and “dry” sounds

Definitely? Really?
The good news is that you found the right forum to educate yourself on what you hear , or should I say what you think you hear, or better yet, what your brain want you to hear.
All the info is here, take your time, we have all been where you are, we will be helping along the way, but you need to read first.
Good luck.

 

[Aure]

Hello,

I own a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 50 7G speakers, and to me they are truly exceptional. They reproduce vocals beautifully, and the bass is very well balanced in my room.

Before that (before I moved to another country), I owned the Silver 100 6G. Honestly, I don't feel like I'm missing much with the Silver 50 7G. That said, the Silver 100 6G did have greater ease and authority in the bass.

As for amplification, I previously used a Hegel H90 and later a Primare i22. My current WiiM Vibelink has nothing to envy from either of them. Well, perhaps in terms of looks and the lack of a remote control—but I'm not quite old enough yet to mind getting up from the couch.

If you have the opportunity to buy a pair of Monitor Audio speakers, I would definitely encourage you to do so. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that the Gold series will require more amplifier power than the Studio 89. Personally, I think the Studio 89 would be my choice.

Best of luck with your decision.

 

[LTig]

So the speakers are the key and could - must? - be much pricier than other parts of the system?

Yes.

Yes, my budget is limited to the cost of the combos mentioned in my list - no Macintosh or Luxman or Accuphase. Only entry level Electrocompaniet. Thus should I really really go downstairs in the “grade” of DAC and amp (towards those chi-fi?) but invest first of all in speakers?

Yes.

Meaning my 14 sq. m room - and chip Fosi/Topping - within my budget it could be (what I have in stores here) MA Gold 100 6G, B&W 705 S3, MA Studio 89, KEF Q R3 Meta… I’m serious - would there really be no mismatch in case of Fosi/Topping with such speakers?

No.

And would it be really the most effective realization of my budget?

I think so.

Someone had asked why the list is so limited, but I wrote in the very first post here I have limitations because of the local stock and very difficult logistics in case of delivery from abroad…

What about option 4 without power amp (Bluesound Node Nano (transport) + Laiv Crescendo Verse DAC/preamp) and active speakers? Check the local shops for musicians what they have to offer. Those studio monitors usually have the best quality/price ratio. If they have Neumann or Genelec you can almost blind buy them.

 

[Redacted]

I'm still shocked that Bluesound is the only choice is Laos - I assumed that that Laos may be well-enough linked to China that Wiim, Fosi, Topping etc might be available. If you expect to move, a little Wiim all-in-one might be handy, and just add speakers....

 

[Sergo72]

I'm still shocked that Bluesound is the only choice is Laos - I assumed that that Laos may be well-enough linked to China that Wiim, Fosi, Topping etc might be available. If you expect to move, a little Wiim all-in-one might be handy, and just add speakers....

No, no, I didn’t mean that Bluesound is the only choice. Bluesound Node Nano just is the most compact and “BlueOS”ed element here I would like to use as a pure transport, while the DAC work will be done by the inner DAC of Electrocompaniet or Laiv. That’s the point. As for the amp I don’t need just to move on the process and buy something, I’m seeking for the best affordable for me solution within the already decided budget.

 

[Sergo72]

And dear friends, sorry, could show me the path to some maybe common table or graphs, if they exist on this site, summarizing the main measured parameters of amplifiers by current, power, impedance, etc. Or should I look to every single particular review?

 

[Timcognito]

Speakers, DSP, User Interface (UI) within budget. Well testing electronics are nearly ubiquitous. Try or read reviews on BluOS vs WiiM UI. I have BluOS since 2017 and Roon. Bluesound is slow to make changes and expensive to upgrade to multi-room. 60+% budget on speakers first the rest will fall into place

 

[AaronJ]

And dear friends, sorry, could show me the path to some maybe common table or graphs, if they exist on this site, summarizing the main measured parameters of amplifiers by current, power, impedance, etc. Or should I look to every single particular review?

I recommend using the "Review Index" linked at the very top of the page. From there you can filter the type of device you want to buy and sort by price to find a range of products within your budget. From there you can go into each individual one to confirm it suits your needs. There isn't a list of different measurements from which to sort. You can search among the products within your price point for the specifications you desire, but a quicker way to do that will be to heed the advice of people on the forum who may know which products to suggest within a certain price point that are most highly acclaimed from testing.