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Time for an upgrade! Best Studio Monitors under $4000?

jhaider

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How do the 708s and 705s compare? Given I have a sub, I'm not too concerned with LF extension. And the 705s are half the price...

For nearfield music enjoyment (as opposed to mastering work) 708s for nearfield don’t IMO make sense. I would look to 705, KH80, or the equivalent Genelec.

I can't help but think the 700 series woofer is the same design family as the 300 series but just better, because most of the same issues are still present - just much reduced in level.

Not close. The 3-series drivers are good basic designs, whereas the 7-series woofers are probably the most outwardly boring looking of the elite level midwoofer s (compared to Purifi, ScanSpeak Illuminator, etc.).

Actually 705 and 708 even have very different woofer tech. The 5” woofer does not have the differential voice coils, but the 8 does.
 

richard12511

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For nearfield music enjoyment (as opposed to mastering work) 708s for nearfield don’t IMO make sense. I would look to 705, KH80, or the equivalent Genelec.



Not close. The 3-series drivers are good basic designs, whereas the 7-series woofers are probably the most outwardly boring looking of the elite level midwoofer s (compared to Purifi, ScanSpeak Illuminator, etc.).

Actually 705 and 708 even have very different woofer tech. The 5” woofer does not have the differential voice coils, but the 8 does.

I get where people think they’re comparable, as the 308 actually spins a bit better than the 708. I own the 308 though, and a buddy owns the 708. The 708 is better at all volumes, though I’m super curious why that is. It’s not a tiny difference, either.
 

jhaider

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I get where people think they’re comparable, as the 308 actually spins a bit better than the 708.

I’m only commenting on the midwoofer drive units above. Truthfully I’ve never listened carefully to 3-series so I have no idea how the complete systems compare.
 

Moonhead

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The 308s do not compare at all to the 708s in terms of power and authority, unfortunately. The cheaper drivers and way lesser amps end up being pretty ugly in the 300 series by comparison. That said, looking at the THD vs Freq graphs for both, I can't help but think the 700 series woofer is the same design family as the 300 series but just better, because most of the same issues are still present - just much reduced in level.

Though to be honest I think for me at the 708 price point I'd be inclined to go 3-way, mostly because I find 2-ways to always have midrange resonance issues if they're ported unless you're Neumann and pull some black magic like on the KH120.

Sounds reasonably, but how will Kali in5 fare against kh120 or 8030c.
 

dfuller

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Sounds reasonably, but how will kali in5 fare against kh120 or 8030c.
Well, again, "unless you're Neumann and pull some black magic like on the KH120."

Genelec's ports are better behaved than most, but... well... They're still there. They're better controlled than the vast majority, but it is a bear to totally get rid of pipe resonances in the midrange with a port.
1620359551383.png



As for the IN5, let's take a look at Erin's measurements. No obvious resonances there. Kali must be sealing the coaxial driver off from the rest of the cabinet - which is what you should do with a ported 3-way, after all.

1620359672742.png
 
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bbizzle

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Does anyone know if there is a comparison between the Genelec 8030c and Neumann KH 120?
 

H-713

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If you're going to spend that much on studio monitors, I *strongly* recommend demoing a few different options, preferably in your studio. Ultimately what matters is not how they measure on Amir's Klippel, but whether they work for you. The measurements are a good place to start, however, but I wouldn't limit yourself based on it.

Ideally you'd demo as many offerings as you can. I liked the Quested V2108s best, as I felt they handled dynamics better than the other things I compared them to, and they measured reasonably flat (by my standards at least) in my room. I also know a lot of people who felt that they got the best results out of ATC, PMC or Genelec, so it's worth considering them as well. I know I'm going to get lots of hate for even mentioning ATC and PMC, but enough people have been very successful with them that I don't think it's wise to dismiss them until you've used them.

To make a long story short, picking monitors for someone else is not an easy task, because I don't know the room and I don't know what you (or your clients) will have the best success with. I'm a firm believer that nobody should buy really expensive speakers speakers based on any online review, even if it includes comprehensive measurements.
 

richard12511

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I know I'm going to get lots of hate for even mentioning ATC and PMC, but enough people have been very successful with them that I don't think it's wise to dismiss them until you've used them.

I don't agree with grouping ATC and PMC in the same group based on ASR tests. For one, we don't have the complete picture of their lineup. Secondly, the ATC measured way better than the PMC. ATC didn't measure SOTA, but it was fairly decent. The PMC was straight garbage.

Also, while I'm sure that there have been many great songs/albums produced on PMC monitors, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't have been even more well received if that had been mixed on Genelecs. Ultimately, the music itself is what sells, the monitor dependent tuning makes a very small difference.
 

dfuller

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I know I'm going to get lots of hate for even mentioning ATC and PMC, but enough people have been very successful with them that I don't think it's wise to dismiss them until you've used them.
Definitely wouldn't recommend grouping ATC in with PMC at all. ATC's issues were far lesser than PMC's, mostly because ATC wasn't trying to be clever and use a large box design principle in a small box (I'm still not quite sure what PMC was thinking trying to use a transmission line in a standmount speaker...).

Beyond that, most of ATC's professional offerings are either 3-way or sealed 2-way as well as active, and judging them on a very outdated version of a passive home audio line bass reflex 2-way is really rather silly.

(FWIW, when I was looking at monitors earlier this year, I looked at SCM25A Pros for half a second, from my use of them in college... then dismissed them because they were 3 times my budget. Ended up with Barefoots, and I'm quite pleased!)
 

H-713

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Definitely wouldn't recommend grouping ATC in with PMC at all. ATC's issues were far lesser than PMC's, mostly because ATC wasn't trying to be clever and use a large box design principle in a small box (I'm still not quite sure what PMC was thinking trying to use a transmission line in a standmount speaker...). Beyond that, most of ATC's professional offerings are either 3-way or sealed 2-way, and judging them on a very outdated version of a bass reflex 2-way is really rather silly.

We also really don't have a full picture of PMC's lineup. What was reviewed was just about the smallest thing PMC has ever made. The higher end PMC and ATC speakers both use exceptionally high-quality drivers, and it's very possible that PMC's box-tuning regiment works wonders in that application.

Also keeping in mind that PMC, ATC and Quested have all made a lot of different speakers over the years, including a lot of "custom requests" that became products, which may or may not perform as well as their normal lineup, and a lot of speakers that may have been designed to work very well in a very specific room. Sometimes those speakers have been discontinued and / or updated for a very, very good reason.

One thing I'm unsure of (and I'd love a bit of enlightenment on) is how accurate the predicted in-room response from the klippel would be in this situation, since the listening rooms which it is based on are rather different from an acoustically treated studio with a console (possibly) and an outboard rack (more likely).

Anyway, I rest my case that limiting yourself to things that Amir has recommended isn't ideal. There's a lot he hasn't measured (particularly in this market and price range). It might be a place to start for suggestions, but there's a lot more to look at.
 

dfuller

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We also really don't have a full picture of PMC's lineup. What was reviewed was just about the smallest thing PMC has ever made. The higher end PMC and ATC speakers both use exceptionally high-quality drivers, and it's very possible that PMC's box-tuning regiment works wonders in that application.
Unfortunately with PMC that weird response is pretty par for the course.
Stereophile's John Atkinson has measured a bunch and they're all rather... not great. Frequency response is always lumpy and weird.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/pmc-ib-1s-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/pmc-fact8-signature-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/pmc-db1iii-loudspeaker-measurements

ATC, however... Quite a bit better.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/atc-scm-11-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/atv-scm7-v3-loudspeaker-measurements

One thing I'm unsure of (and I'd love a bit of enlightenment on) is how accurate the predicted in-room response from the klippel would be in this situation, since the listening rooms which it is based on are rather different from an acoustically treated studio with a console (possibly) and an outboard rack (more likely).
This is something that @hardisj and others talked about on his Focal Twin6 Be review. Nearfield should mean a different ratio of listening window to early reflections, and lots of absorption should mean a similar thing. Hard to know really, but I hope Klippel comes up with an "Estimated Nearfield Response" metric as well.
 

H-713

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Unfortunately with PMC that weird response is pretty par for the course.
Stereophile's John Atkinson has measured a bunch and they're all rather... not great. Frequency response is always lumpy and weird.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/pmc-ib-1s-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/pmc-fact8-signature-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/pmc-db1iii-loudspeaker-measurements

ATC, however... Quite a bit better.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/atc-scm-11-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.stereophile.com/content/atv-scm7-v3-loudspeaker-measurements

This is something that @hardisj and others talked about on his Focal Twin6 Be review. Nearfield should mean a different ratio of listening window to early reflections, and lots of absorption should mean a similar thing. Hard to know really, but I hope Klippel comes up with an "Estimated Nearfield Response" metric as well.


That's kind of what I expected, though what I'd like to see is a measurement of the big PMC speakers- the ones with the Volt radial woofers. Of course, anything with those radial woofers (be it Quested or PMC) will be outside the OP's budget, even on the used market.

I'm also of the opinion that absolute flatness in a studio monitor isn't necessarily the be-all end-all. It's important, and it should be close, but studio monitoring is a rather specific situation and dynamic output is also important. In my eyes, a couple dB of ripple (as long as it isn't too bad) is not a disaster, but power compression can be. I've seen speakers that measure ruler flat but aren't good monitors because of this.
 
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bbizzle

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In my eyes, a couple dB of ripple (as long as it isn't too bad) is not a disaster, but power compression can be. I've seen speakers that measure ruler flat but aren't good monitors because of this.

This is something that Bob Katz talks about as well - self compressing speakers. Is there a way to measure this? I'd imagine this would be a problem at louder volumes, but I tend to not mix/master audio above 80 dBSPL...
 

H-713

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This is something that Bob Katz talks about as well - self compressing speakers. Is there a way to measure this? I'd imagine this would be a problem at louder volumes, but I tend to not mix/master audio above 80 dBSPL...

Those are average levels- the peak levels (during a transient) are much higher.

Like anything, it can be measured, but whether people choose to measure it is another issue. Most don't, and I suspect the reason is that it's a pain to do so. I'm also not sure that anyone has agreed on what the best way to do it is.

It's less of an issue for audiophile speakers since finished music is almost always less dynamic than raw recordings in a studio.
 

FeddyLost

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You need to check out availability and compare in your studio.
There's not much help in reviews.
I'd think about KH310. They are detailed and boring, which is very important for synthetic genres, where emotions are being made in the mix.
 

sweetchaos

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Does anyone know if there is a comparison between the Genelec 8030c and Neumann KH 120?

Here you go:
ezgif-1-8ba5c7b64ee4.gif

Neumann KH120:
-3dB (resp. -6db) point v.s. reference is at 45.0Hz (resp. 42.0Hz).
Preference Score is 6.7 and would be 8.7 with a perfect subwoofer.

Genelec 8030C:
-3dB (resp. -6db) point v.s. reference is at 54.0Hz (resp. 48.0Hz).
Preference Score is 6.3 and would be 8.5 with a perfect subwoofer.

Neumann spinorama provided by Neumann here.
 
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