Time Domain measurements?

[haraldo]

Interesting point and really wonder your meaning when you say: no one ever listen to .
Though Michel Jonasz is not my first taste, he is a well estimated singer in France ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Jonasz

This is an example of something I think is super-nice

On the other hand: how many out there are listening to "cannon-shots" and material that only serve the purpose of showing the dynamic range of the system

 

[Harmonie]

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your earlier post.
We agree then.

Well maybe there are video game addicted players who just love hearing cannon shots ?

 

[Kravi4ka]

AnaMightysound use Joachim's speakers to demonstrate their world class work with some of the most expensive equipment on the planet. And they as well as him are there for the love of music,not for the bragging rights or for the quick monetary success.

Meanwhile the Surveyor is giving the Beo LX a serious competition I need a Surveyor plus a bass module...

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

Nice Setup. I have seen Michel Jonasz Life in Nice.

 

[Kravi4ka]

Unfortunately that is not my system but a friend's... If you rememeber the Beo LX was in bright orange

I feel bad for turning this thread into a Joachim Gerhard Speakers love thread but I could not resist, I am beyond happy with the Surveyor. Silence follows,

 

[haraldo]

I am going to "swear in church" as we say in Norwegian, but I think it is an unquestionable fact that the passive speakers discussed here are not phase / time coheremt, when you set a 2nd order or 4th order linkwitz riley filter you get a 180 or 360 degree phaseshift, I assume you can correct this in the digital domain but then again, are we not correcting for something in the wrong place?

Making a true time-coherent speaker is extremely tough on the drivers and I assume especially the tweeter will live an extremely hard life.

I do have a pair of John Dunlavy designed Duntech PCL-15, perfect time/phase response flat as Nebraska, they have simply no signature whatsoever...., they have some magic that may be unsurpassed by any speaker I heard, no matter price.....
(but there is a lot of downsides too, bass is missing and you can't play loud, they can drive a Krell KAV400-xi into severe breathing problems without playing very loud, 82dB sensitivity for 1w, they look like crap, but it's pure magic)

I am not saying what is right or wrong, but I am saying that there is something with the best speakers that have perfect time/phase response, "some magic stuff" I think I never experienced yet in speakers with 2nd, 3rd or 4th order crossovers... Maybe it's my imagination or maybe I am ready to be visited by the doctors wearing white jackets.... I still think there is something there

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

There Is a host of other factors like radiation pattern, distortion, compression, sensitivity, cabinet resonances, Maximum volume, bass Extension, just to Name a few, to make or break a good speaker. I am Sure i can find flaws in the Dunlavy. A lot of water has flown down the rhine since. A L/R2 or L/R4 can be easy corrected with DSP unleserlich you think digital does Not Sound as good as analog. Then you have other big trouble.

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

This is the Step Response of the highly praised Genelec. Nobody Seams to complain. And i think they are perfectly capable to erode this if they wanted.

 

[richard12511]

This is the Step Response of the highly praised Genelec. Nobody Seams to complain. And i think they are perfectly capable to erode this if they wanted.

For someone like me who uses Dirac, does this get corrected automatically?

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

I do not know Dirac. I work with Accurate. That requires measurements and some choices of the target curve. It can be perfectly corrected though and L/R crossovers have the advantage of controlled radiation pattern. The main disadvantage is a hole in the power response around the crossover frequency. That can be ameliorated with a rather low crossover frequency like what I did in the Surveyor. If the phase response of the Surveyor is audible with typical low crest factor music is questionable and a 6dB acoustic 2 way crossover is simply not possible. Maybe an octave around the crossover frequency but not deeper.

 

[tuga]

This is the Step Response of the highly praised Genelec. Nobody Seams to complain. And i think they are perfectly capable to erode this if they wanted.

Perhaps we just need more and better research on audibility thresholds. Until then people will just quote you the existing "science" and carry on merrily...

 

[haraldo]

There Is a host of other factors like radiation pattern, distortion, compression, sensitivity, cabinet resonances, Maximum volume, bass Extension, just to Name a few, to make or break a good speaker. I am Sure i can find flaws in the Dunlavy. A lot of water has flown down the rhine since. A L/R2 or L/R4 can be easy corrected with DSP unleserlich you think digital does Not Sound as good as analog. Then you have other big trouble.

@Joachim Gerhard This is NOT criticism
merely a reflection how insanely difficult speakers are, and there is no way to make the best speaker in everything ..... When you use dsp based phase/time correction, are you happy with the result?, or do you think the best passive speakers go best with as minimal digital correction as possible? The digital correction systems I listened to always seemed to have a downside by sucking life out of music (I don't have that deep knowledge though)
You said "the best speakers are passive for a reason"

Still, I'd like that perfect phase/time

 

[haraldo]

.... Nobody Seams to complain. .....

maybe I would complain

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

Yes, you would. And there is always something to complain.

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

The Problem with Digital Dome Right is a sound that is in many ways boring. Low distortion sounds Sweet. „ The perfect speaker will to unnotised „ Peter Walker.

 

[haraldo]

Yes, you would. And there is always something to complain.

No, not always

 

[Joachim Gerhard]

Then you would je a very unhappy person.

 

[UliBru]

The Problem with Digital Dome Right is a sound that is in many ways boring. Low distortion sounds Sweet. „ The perfect speaker will to unnotised „ Peter Walker.

A perfect speaker will transfer a recording perfectly 1:1. If the result is boring then this must be caused by the recording and not by the speaker. Because an ideal speaker does not change the content of the music.

 

[KSTR]

This is the Step Response of the highly praised Genelec. Nobody Seams to complain.

IME the phase error from a standard LR4 two-way at ~2kHz or higher tends to be audibly benign.

Your choice of a lower XO freq and an acoustical LR2 is certainly even more benign and IME making such an XO linear-phase with phase pre-distortion of the source with an FIR does not really pay off: a very minor change in the soundstage realism, not always neccessarily better, is all what I have perceived personally in listening tests.

The 100Hz...2kHz range is fare more important wrt phase errors, IMHO, as is the addition/XO for subwoofers. There, I would strongly assume most people would rate the linear-phase clone of a speaker (or speaker + sub) higher in controlled blind tests. For example, a linear phase speaker tends to make polarity inversion more reliably detectable and it is easier to give one of two polarities the preference.

And most people would find the linear-phase version have more "slam" and "impact "and be very "quick" and "transparent" (if the room allows, that is), I would guess...

 

[haraldo]

A perfect speaker will transfer a recording perfectly 1:1. If the result is boring then this must be caused by the recording and not by the speaker. Because an ideal speaker does not change the content of the music.

There is no such thing as an ideal speaker, I don't think there is any speaker that can do that .... go to a concert hall and listen to Leif Ove Andsnes playing a Steinway Model D, it cannot be reproduced by a hi-fi system .... at least I never heard it, and I auditioned the very very very best that Oslo Hifi Center has to offer, many times ... (including Geir Tømmervik's own rig with custom Kef Muon) very good but not there ...