Timbre vs accuracy in speakers

[Gasman117]

One elusive audio quality i look for is the sound of a piano or cymbals.
I’ve had Thiel 2 2, Revel Studios, Thiel 2.4’s, then 3.7s. Recently, I sold my 3.7s and bought Dali Opticon 6 mk2.
The Dalis have a ribbon tweeter that interests me.
None of the other speakers I’ve had get the timber of piano and ringing of cymbals right.
The Dali’s tweeter comes the closest I’ve heard to reproducing those things. Although the Dali’s do lack the soundstage and imaging of the Thiel’s.

Anyone else notice this?

 

[sam_adams]

Anyone else notice this?

No.

 

[MattHooper]

One elusive audio quality i look for is the sound of a piano or cymbals.
I’ve had Thiel 2 2, Revel Studios, Thiel 2.4’s, then 3.7s. Recently, I sold my 3.7s and bought Dali Opticon 6 mk2.
The Dalis have a ribbon tweeter that interests me.
None of the other speakers I’ve had get the timber of piano and ringing of cymbals right.
The Dali’s tweeter comes the closest I’ve heard to reproducing those things. Although the Dali’s do lack the soundstage and imaging of the Thiel’s.

Anyone else notice this?

I owned the Thiel 3.7 and still own Thiel 2.7
to me both were able to produce quite convincing sound of pianos and cymbals.
But in such anecdotal settings we’re pretty much going on whatever possibly idiosyncratic memory we have of those instruments, which our systems may or may not please. (I feel I am somewhat massaging the sound a bit with my CJ tube amps which tend to produce cymbals sounding a bit more “brassy” in my perception which I prefer , versus “ silvery.”)

I also listened to the Dali Epicore 11 speakers at my friend’s house a number of times. I did find drum cymbals to sound pretty good on those.

For me, probably the most convincing reproduction of drum cymbals came from MBL Omnis, both of the big models that I have heard in various setups and also in the stand mounted version I owned.

(by the way on a forum like this I think you’re less likely to get the type of responses you’re hoping for….)

 

[Gasman117]

I already saw a reply like that.
My hearing ain’t what it was, I have some high end loss) but I hear things others don’t.
Perhaps I’ll keep my observations quieter and appreciate the music.

 

[MattHooper]

I already saw a reply like that.
My hearing ain’t what it was, I have some high end loss) but I hear things others don’t.
Perhaps I’ll keep my observations quieter and appreciate the music.

It would be a shame to not be able to talk about how you perceive things to sound.

That is after all the function of our gear, to produce sound… especially sound that pleases us.

And there may be technical reasons why one speaker design, or possibly driver design in certain circumstances, might be better at reproducing cymbals, pianos etc.

 

[Gasman117]

I look at the graphs of speaker performance here on ASR. Then I wonder why do some speakers sound remarkably better than others, yet the raw data isn’t that different.
What’s the secret sauce?
Obviously more than just freq response and dispersion. I saw a graph of freq response for white noise vs pink noise: they were quite different.
First, i guess you have to define what is “speaker performance” or what makes a high end sound before you measure it.
I had my 3.7s dialed in so vocals were pinned in the center just behind the speaker plane. The Dali’s despite nice sound aren’t as focused or “precise “.
Still enjoyable!

 

[Palmer]

Can't make Brass out of Timber...

I'll get my coat...

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Then I wonder why do some speakers sound remarkably better than others, yet the raw data isn’t that different.

Some easy possible reasons:
1. they were in different rooms or interacted with the room differently
2. you heard them at different volumes
3. they have different bass extension or SPL
4. they were EQ'd differently
5. you heard them sighted and therefore what you "heard" is contaminated by the contributions of your eyes and biases
6. you heard them with some time in between and your memory of the sound is not accurate (it never is) so you are comparing a memory of a feeling with a current sound

 

[MattHooper]

I look at the graphs of speaker performance here on ASR. Then I wonder why do some speakers sound remarkably better than others, yet the raw data isn’t that different.
What’s the secret sauce?

That’s my personal issue evaluating loudspeakers as well. I can get some general ideas about the performance of loudspeaker from measurements, and certainly some general impressions of the frequency response. But I can’t fully predict from measurements whether a particular speaker will sound exquisite and beautiful to me or not. I’ve seen speaker measurements that are very similar and the two different speakers did share certain agreeable qualities, and yet whenever slight deviations were happening in one speaker sufficed to push me from “ this is fine” to “ this is so beautiful I just want to keep listening and listening.” Or the measurements may be very similar, but the slightest deviation in one of them can end up sounding a bit fatigue to me.

I had my 3.7s dialed in so vocals were pinned in the center just behind the speaker plane. The Dali’s despite nice sound aren’t as focused or “precise “.
Still enjoyable!

Yup. That’s one of the features that as long as attracted me to Thiel speakers : the amazing precision and focus and density of the imaging. I personally haven’t found a speaker that does it better at this point.
I even own some more expensive loudspeakers than my Thiel 2.7s, and those speakers are known for being terrific with sound staging an image precision. But next to the Thiels they still sound less precise.

 

[SHB]

When you say timber, do you mean the type of wood being used to make the speaker?

I’ll go with it being timbre (the quality given to a sound by its overtones).

Being a musician and engineer, I’d find the recording to be more important to the quality of the sound of piano and percussion than just the speaker.

The problem with loudspeakers is that they not only vary from one model to the next, but they also are colored by the room they reside in.

 

[alex-z]

Relatively small differences in directivity can significantly change qualities such as spaciousness or realism of instruments due to side wall reflections.

Those Dali Opticon 6 mk2 have a 17x45mm ribbon tweeter crossed at 14000Hz. The vertical off-axis will be terrible but horizontal width in the top octave will be wider than virtually any other speaker.

In my opinion the best overall package is a 21mm dome tweeter, 4" mid, and 10-12" woofer. That way you can achieve relatively wide yet consistent directivity.

Room acoustics do play a significant role. Treating problematic early reflections (typically under 20ms) will reduce psychoacoustic masking, you inherently get more stereo separation and definition of individual instruments.

 

[Keith_W]

Speakers that prioritize timber tend to sound wooden.

 

[Alan O]

One elusive audio quality i look for is the sound of a piano or cymbals.

I listen to piano a lot for the same reason, but there's always one thing that gets in the way. Different pianos sound different. And different recordings of the same piano can sound different. So while it might help me to decide how much I like something, I don't think listening to piano can tell me much about accuracy - other than in the broadest terms.

 

[MattHooper]

I listen to piano a lot for the same reason, but there's always one thing that gets in the way. Different pianos sound different. And different recordings of the same piano can sound different. So while it might help me to decide how much I like something, I don't think listening to piano can tell me much about accuracy - other than in the broadest terms.

I think that’s fair of course.

I had some piano tracks as part of my test tracks that I used on a large variety of speakers, and one speaker played some of those tracks creating more of a sensation of being in front of a real piano for me than any of the others. That’s the type of thing that gets my attention. (even though the speaker did not measure “great”)

 

[Duke]

I listen to piano a lot for the same reason, but there's always one thing that gets in the way. Different pianos sound different.

I'm a fan of pianist Seth Kaufman, and years ago bought what was then his most recent album, "Red Descending": https://www.amazon.com/Red-Descending-Seth-Kaufman/dp/B0000C1HFJ

For context, this was shortly after I became a high-end audio dealer.

A few months later I saw him perform at a small venue in New Orleans (called "Snug Harbor"). At the time he was a medical student in New Orleans, and the recording had been made in Los Angeles. But it sounded to me like he was playing the exact same piano as the one on the recording... so much so that after the show I asked him.

And YES it WAS the exact same piano! He'd had his Yamaha grand piano crated and trucked to the studio in Los Angeles for this recording.