• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Tidal vs Qobuz experience

Beershaun

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 3, 2019
Messages
1,864
Likes
1,910
MQA is delivered in a FLAC container. There is no such thing as an MQA container.

You are right my mistake. MQA is a codec transmitted in a FLAC container. Which means you must have a local decoder/renderer to decode it that understands MQA Like the Tidal app or Roon app. If you don't then a non-MQA FLAC file must be sent by the server. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_Quality_Authenticated

[QUOTE="Regarding Warner, one week ago I could happily download a lossless FLAC album of my choosing on Tidal - now I can’t. I am not sure why I am the one that needs to explain this change. Why is Warner no longer allowing me to do this?[/QUOTE]

This is what I am trying to understand. I don't yet follow how you've been harmed and am seeking to clarify. In what app are you referring to that you can no longer download a FLAC file? What file can you no longer download? I can still download any Tidal file locally in my Tidal Android app. Including the Aretha Franklin album you mentioned. I can't download any of them outside this app or on my Mac Tidal app and never could. So I am trying to better understand what has changed for you. If I stop paying for Master level Tidal I will stop getting MQA files and will get whatever tier I pay for. Whether it's lossy MP3 or lossless FLAC.
 

samsa

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
506
Likes
589
Which means you must have a local decoder/renderer to decode it that understands MQA Like the Tidal app or Roon app. If you don't then a non-MQA FLAC file must be sent by the server. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_Quality_Authenticated

Again, no.

Whatever the container format, MQA is just ordinary 24/48 PCM, with the lowest 8 bits of each 24bit sample "repurposed". When played on a non-MQA-aware DAC, those 8 bits are just interpreted as low-level noise. Effectively, you're getting 16/48 PCM, but without (AFAICT) the noise-shaping dither that would normally be applied.
 

KeenObserver

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2020
Messages
81
Likes
140
Again, no.

Whatever the container format, MQA is just ordinary 24/48 PCM, with the lowest 8 bits of each 24bit sample "repurposed". When played on a non-MQA-aware DAC, those 8 bits are just interpreted as low-level noise. Effectively, you're getting 16/48 PCM, but without (AFAICT) the noise-shaping dither that would normally be applied.

And the 16/44.1 MQA. What do you get there?
 

samsa

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
506
Likes
589
And the 16/44.1 MQA. What do you get there?

MQA CD's ? Horrible!

There, the 3 least-significant bits are repurposed. So you're effectively getting 13/44.1 PCM.

With 16 bits and noise-shaping dither, you can, arguably, push the noise below the threshold of audibility. Not so for 13 bits. And it's not like you're getting to pack a whole lot of useful information in the 3 bits/sample that you've sacrificed.

Hopefully, the MQA CD will suffer a quick and well-deserved death.
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,425
Likes
7,940
Location
Brussels, Belgium
MQA CD's ? Horrible!

There, the 3 least-significant bits are repurposed. So you're effectively getting 13/44.1 PCM.

With 16 bits and noise-shaping dither, you can, arguably, push the noise below the threshold of audibility. Not so for 13 bits. And it's not like you're getting to pack a whole lot of useful information in the 3 bits/sample that you've sacrificed.

Hopefully, the MQA CD will suffer a quick and well-deserved death.

i have never heard of MQA CDs so it looks like it’s already dead.

Seriously what were they thinking lol.
Interesting! Did you read the Forbes article?

Which article are you referring to?
 

KeenObserver

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2020
Messages
81
Likes
140
MQA CD's ? Horrible!

There, the 3 least-significant bits are repurposed. So you're effectively getting 13/44.1 PCM.

With 16 bits and noise-shaping dither, you can, arguably, push the noise below the threshold of audibility. Not so for 13 bits. And it's not like you're getting to pack a whole lot of useful information in the 3 bits/sample that you've sacrificed.

Hopefully, the MQA CD will suffer a quick and well-deserved death.

What are these 16/44.1 streams that Forbes is reporting that Warner is supplying to Tidal?
 

dmac6419

Major Contributor
Joined
Feb 16, 2019
Messages
1,246
Likes
770
Location
USofA
MQA CD's ? Horrible!

There, the 3 least-significant bits are repurposed. So you're effectively getting 13/44.1 PCM.

With 16 bits and noise-shaping dither, you can, arguably, push the noise below the threshold of audibility. Not so for 13 bits. And it's not like you're getting to pack a whole lot of useful information in the 3 bits/sample that you've sacrificed.

Hopefully, the MQA CD will suffer a quick and well-deserved death.
You have horrible vinyl,tape ,Cd's and digital download that are down-sampled,up sampled you name it.
 

samsa

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
506
Likes
589
What are these 16/44.1 streams that Forbes is reporting that Warner is supplying to Tidal?

Could be a mistake. Or these could be the PCM streams (packaged in a FLAC container) that would normally be intended for an MQA CD.

Edit: Definitely not a mistake. Here's a post from a Roon user showing a 16/44.1 MQA stream. So Tidal really is foisting off that 13-bit crap on their subscribers.

i have never heard of MQA CDs so it looks like it’s already dead.

If only. Mostly a plague on the Japanese market, so far.
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,425
Likes
7,940
Location
Brussels, Belgium
Could be a mistake. Or these could be the PCM streams (packaged in a FLAC container) that would normally be intended for an MQA CD.



If only. Mostly a plague on the Japanese market, so far.

I don’t understand what’s ‘DRM’ about MQA btw. You seem very informed on the topic so i wanted to ask you.

So at worst case scenario you’re getting 16 bit 44.1 or 48 Khz which is CD quality. Without needing any special hardware or internet connection.

The best analogue electronics, including the analogue stage of the DAC is at around 20-bit, so that is 1/6 of the 24-bit bandwidth unnecessary right there, and most power amp probably at best are 90dB, so even 16-bit is more than needed there.

Why are people so against MQA? It shouldn’t take away from a CD experience anyway. Only add to it if you have the hardware for it.
 

abdo123

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
7,425
Likes
7,940
Location
Brussels, Belgium
Could be a mistake. Or these could be the PCM streams (packaged in a FLAC container) that would normally be intended for an MQA CD.

Edit: Definitely not a mistake. Here's a post from a Roon user showing a 16/44.1 MQA stream. So Tidal really is foisting off that 13-bit crap on their subscribers.



If only. Mostly a plague on the Japanese market, so far.

Okay i just looked that album up, there are two MQA versions.

one that is 16 bit and another that is 24 bit. They sound ALOT different.

1606079714897.png


1606079732287.png


400kbps yeah go fuck yourself lmao. might as well listen to Spotify at that point.
 

KeenObserver

Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2020
Messages
81
Likes
140
I don’t understand what’s ‘DRM’ about MQA btw. You seem very informed on the topic so i wanted to ask you.

So at worst case scenario you’re getting 16 bit 44.1 or 48 Khz which is CD quality. Without needing any special hardware or internet connection.

The best analogue electronics, including the analogue stage of the DAC is at around 20-bit, so that is 1/6 of the 24-bit bandwidth unnecessary right there, and most power amp probably at best are 90dB, so even 16-bit is more than needed there.

Why are people so against MQA? It shouldn’t take away from a CD experience anyway. Only add to it if you have the hardware for it.

I believe what has been said is that unprocessed 24/44.1 MQA comes out 16 bit. 16/44.1 unprocessed MQA comes out 13 bit.
 

Beershaun

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 3, 2019
Messages
1,864
Likes
1,910
400kbps yeah go fuck yourself lmao. might as well listen to Spotify at that point.

You are reading it wrong. That is the instantaneous bit rate of the streaming connection at that point in time. Just like any streaming protocol the rate at any given time varies when the file is actually being streamed to the renderer. Your two pictures tell exactly that story. At one moment it's streaming at a connection speed of 1106kbps and the next 410kbps. It has nothing to do with the bit rate or sample rate of the file when the DAC converts it to analog.
 

Taddpole

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2020
Messages
334
Likes
453
You are reading it wrong. That is the instantaneous bit rate of the streaming connection at that point in time. Just like any streaming protocol the rate at any given time varies when the file is actually being streamed to the renderer. Your two pictures tell exactly that story. At one moment it's streaming at a connection speed of 1106kbps and the next 410kbps. It has nothing to do with the bit rate or sample rate of the file when the DAC converts it to analog.

No you've read it wrong, they say they cued up two different files. One 24bit and one 16 bit as shown in pics.

It may be that those are the streaming speeds of a moment but that's linked to them being different files.
 

Beershaun

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Oct 3, 2019
Messages
1,864
Likes
1,910
No you've read it wrong, they say they cued up two different files. One 24bit and one 16 bit as shown in pics.

It may be that those are the streaming speeds of a moment but that's linked to them being different files.

You are right. Thanks for correcting me. They are two different files. I just didn't want the poster thinking incorrectly that the streaming speed was the file bitrate and thinking they were getting less then they were supposed to get.
 
Top Bottom