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Thread closures and controversy versus reality. Spoiler [Fact on the ropes]

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Putter

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i gotta throw up a big *stop* sign on the "Amir is poor" line ..Amir isn't poor , not even close.. you know how i know? i'm really fucking poor .. calling Amir "poor" is an insult to me.. sorry , no offense intended.. but i've seen Amir's "poor me " act by 100 guys in my past .. it's a cute ruse to keep the money rolling in...

As an ex Microsoft employee I doubt he's poor, but I really don't care what is his financial status. He provides a service to this forum by evaluating audio products in a thorough, scientific and technical way and isn't afraid to call out inferior products. This is largely unknown in the audio community, a kind of Consumer Reports for the audiophile. If you feel he doesn't need the money, then don't contribute. By your own admission, you don't seem likely to be purchasing much audio equipment or can spare the money in any case.
 
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Dave Zan

Dave Zan

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I can't keep track what the thread is about anymore.

It's about when is it reasonable to close a thread and the limits of debate.
I would like to keep it that way.
Otherwise it becomes self referential because I will want to close this one myself.
So I will try to keep it on track, here's some responses to people's comments.

Covid is so hopelessly... politic[al]

My point was why is Covid political?
When I was a kid the world started to vaccinate to defeat Polio.
We won, polio is eliminated in most of the world, deaths are almost zero.
I don't recall any politics about it, it was a medical battle.
Why is this now so inconceivable?

Crikey, I want some (dis)information on SARS-COV-2, I better go on a forum dedicated to sound reproduction!

@Vasr answered this beautifully, there is value to receive input from a diversity of people.
The "echo chamber" effect of like minded internet forums is part of the problem, I think.
A few dozen people reinforce each others opinion and it seems like "everyone knows that".
Even when it represents less than 0.000001 % of the world's population.
The human intuition of what is probable evolved in a society with tribes of small numbers.

... people need places they can escape the current news cycle to avoid unhealthy obsession and overload.

Maybe better to read about the real world to escape an unhealthy obsession and overload with audio?
Amir himself has the comment that there's more to life "than fetal position in a dark room in front of a couple of speakers."
It's not like it's compulsory to read the Covid (or whatever news) threads, or that they can't be avoided.
I see them as an added bonus.

... i have a pretty thick skin...

Evidently.
Please don't continue with this theme in this thread.
If you start your own thread I'd be quite supportive of Thomas if he shut that one down.

Best wishes
David
 
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Thomas savage

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Some of the earlier covid threads had a lot of useful information in them, when they were discussing the hard sciences, I'm sad to see that go, but the recent thread was mainly drivel, so I get why it was closed.
This is true , and it happens to a lot of threads once the meat of the subject has been done to death . I knew what would happen in the latest covid19 thread , I let it happen despite my better judgement because a good few seemed to disagree and i wanted it to be irrefutable despite two previous examples that were so much better as it turned out than the last thread showing the path of travel.

There will be no more covid19 threads , the last one was complete drivel . Free of any ' uniqueness ' some seem to think our membership provides . If you want covid19 information well just turn on the TV or read a paper it's everywhere, if you want to talk about there's virtually a unlimited number of avenues for you you don't need audio science review furthermore I suggest internet forums and their limits aren't a great place for complex topics of that nature, humans ruin it lol.
 

Thomas savage

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Amirm's not poor but he's considerably less well off financially than he would be had he not done all this ASR stuff for you lot . Doesn't need to be of course he could bombard this place with adverts but chooses not to. Amirm's also not land owning gentry so he wasn't given anything. If you knew his life story no one would be so vulgar to start bringing up this sort of thing.

There's no moral superiority in being rich or well off nor is there any moral superiority in being poor.

Now back to moaning about free speech , I'm off to work .
 

Neutron

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There is a reason why science journals aren’t open to discussion unless you submit a paper as a disagreement of previous work. People do that all the time. I have followed a series of blows traded back and forth between two research groups. Ludwig Eduard Boltzmann is a great example. He was bashed so hardly by the scientific community of his time and eventually committed suicide. He was proven right decades later.

Just don’t expect any cutting edge research topics to be communicated properly in a forum of any form.
 
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North_Sky

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it's simply an untrue statement ... i mean no disrespect, but calling Amir poor is simply parroting his strategy for collecting donations .. i don't begrudge him for the effort .. don't belittle my attempt at setting the record straight.. you don't have to like it be respect the honesty at least..

It was humor. How many forums do you know without a single add?
Of course he can't be poor, or doing it for free. How many people do you know taking all that time to measure all that equipment and for free?

We are supporters, all forums have donations option. When you support someone by a simple small donation it makes you feel good because you support what you know is right. You don't have to, and Amir forces no one...he has a good and fun attitude about it.
It's from the heart, the soul. It's each person's choice and it's a token of encouragement.

I don't know if Amir is rich or poor, it doesn't make any difference about who he is.
I assume that he is equal financially to you and I. But I could be wrong and he might be poorer...it is possible. To me he is rich for his generosity, for his state-of-mind, for his knowledge, for his calmness, for his humanity, for his entrepreneurship.

Sorry that you took it that way, but it was with humor and nothing else.
Rich or poor we are who we are, and money doesn't make us any different.
I see zero adds, so I'm sure he appreciate the small contributions by the members.
It encourages him, motivates him, helps us all.

And that's his home, his friends, his contribution to the audio community.
That's solid state sounding warm.
 
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North_Sky

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I always thought it was spelled "capisce"?

I sympathize with your desire, though, for a place to discuss things free of human discord. But as they say:

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

But my dog died last night at the age of 10.5, in his sleep, so I'm afflicted with melancholy.

He was a better soul than most people, or at least how most people behave on the internet.

Italian.

Sorry about your dog. Je comprends ton feeling.
 

leeroy 85032

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It was humor. How many forums do you know without a single add?
Of course he can't be poor, or doing it for free. How many people do you know taking all that time to measure all that equipment and for free?

We are supporters, all forums have donations option. When you support someone by a simple small donation it makes you feel good because you support what you know is right. You don't have to, and Amir forces no one...he has a good and fun attitude about it.
It's from the heart, the soul. It's each person's choice and it's a token of encouragement.

I don't know if Amir is rich or poor, it doesn't make any difference about who he is.
I assume that he is equal financially to you and I. But I could be wrong and he might be poorer...it is possible. To me he is rich for his generosity, for his state-of-mind, for his knowledge, for his calmness, for his humanity, for his entrepreneurship.

Sorry that you took it that way, but it was with humor and nothing else.
Rich or poor we are who we are, and money doesn't make us any different.
I see zero adds, so I'm sure he appreciate the small contribiputions by the members.

And that's his home, his friends, his contribution to the audio community.
That's solid state sounding warm.
it's all good , i just want those that that get guilted into making donations to hear a different take on things.. i have a pretty thick skin, you didn't hurt my feelings.. it does bother me however when people feign hardship while holding out their hand.. not so much that i lose my shit about it , but enough to challenge .. it's about a 3 outta 10 on my give a shit meter.. no doubt i have bigger worries :)
 

North_Sky

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Anyway, back to the closing thread, in particular say the last one...it is science that we are interested in, not politics. It was doing fine, so I too was surprised.
No one replied to a post that has a small political undertone, that's how we move forward by simply jumping over it, and that's what we did.

If it wasn't an important science topic (health, pandemic, herd immunity, strategy) we wouldn't care much. But it's an important issue, the first in all our lifetime, affecting everyone on the planet and on all aspects of life.
To dismiss it ... we all know that's impossible.

The OP was active and responsible, and so was everyone else.

The other one with almost 3,000 posts was also very active and passionately so from people with a mind and heart for their people and the world, including Spain.

I also have the greatest respect for the engineering audio team.
And like them I hate politics. It's always a fight. But us we don't have to fight, but all fight a common enemy all together. And we do, online with audio science review...where we stay safe, distant, and we don't need to wear a mask online. South Korea people they have computers for 90% of their population. They understand by the Internet how serious this virus is, they trust their leaders and all work together. And when they go out to buy food they all wear a mask and stay a safe distance and remain calm...talking and gesturing smoothly, saving their energy, their breath, being disciplined, polite, considerate, cooperative, team work. We can use that here in the Americas.

20200927_211103.jpg


Is it news that we can use? I let you answer that. For me it sure is.
I learn from intelligent articles, intelligent people, scientist experts on health and epidemics. Zero politics to do with it; cooperation from everyone on all levels.
With COVID-19 it is the best recourse I see to stop it, stopping it of spreading so that precious time can be well spent on developing an effective vaccine, with the time that it truly takes without rushing it by ending up with bad side effects. That's the way it works in science.

It's the same with designing an Audio component, if you will.
 
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Vasr

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There will be no more covid19 threads , the last one was complete drivel .

It had also become a very one-sided debate with pro-herd-immunity, anti-lockdown views not getting much traction.
 

Willem

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This is a forum with a strong affection for science and the facts. Politics, however, is about one's moral preferences for how society should be organized. These are very different things, and should not be mixed. However, politics cannot ignore science or reality, because there are constraints from reality on what we can wish for. So there can be a grey zone, where one person's legitimate assessment of those constraints differs from somebody else's. The problem with some recent public debates is that there is a noisy group of people who effectively argue that those constraints are fake, and that scientists are part of a conspiracy. Thus, standing up for science is suddenly becoming a political act, even though it does not necessarily involve a political preference one way or the other. We should remember Pat Moynihan: 'Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.'
 

sergeauckland

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Willem's quote attributed to Pat Moynihan is spot-on, but I think Pat should have added, 'and keep those opinions to yourself unless properly thought through.

Wouldn't be as catchy, but would cut down on an awful lot of noise on forums, Twitter etc etc.

S
 

Willem

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And of course it gets a bit more complicated if the views of those with blinkers on become politically important or even attractive to exploit and affect the effectiveness of measures. Here in the Netherlands infections have been rising very rapidly over the last few weeks, but it is clear that the government waited longer than experts advised, because of the expected resistance from those who do not grasp the importance of the combination of a time lag in observation and an underlying exponential curve. It had to get worse before there would be social acceptance. Even now, with the public health system already straining, there are still those who oppose more stringent controls, even though those restrictions are still far from what they were a few months ago, and very far from those in countries like Spain.
 

Soniclife

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But my dog died last night at the age of 10.5, in his sleep, so I'm afflicted with melancholy.

He was a better soul than most people, or at least how most people behave on the internet.
Sorry to hear that, and completely agree with the sentiment. When the creator of Calvin and Hobbes real cat died he created the following.
321daijkmmh11.jpg
 

BDWoody

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But my dog died last night at the age of 10.5, in his sleep, so I'm afflicted with melancholy.

He was a better soul than most people, or at least how most people behave on the internet.

I'm so sorry.
Thoughts with you man...
 
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Aerith Gainsborough

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Hmm I was a bit surprised that it got closed, to be honest.
From what I saw, people were being civil (maybe ugly stuff happened that was deleted?).

Personally, I know that my opinions were a bit unconventional and that I mis-stepped too but I found it interesting to be confronted with points of view and interpretations that I had not considered myself. To me, that is what a forum is all about, especially a scientific minded one.
In my humble opinion, there is no topic that scientific folks should be afraid to debate. There are no "taboos".

I can understand that it is tiresome to moderate hot-button topics, especially if they are so heavily politicized. So, while being surprised that it was closed, I can see why the mods basically said "Oof, lets stick to audio and leave the messy stuff to s/o else".
 

leeroy 85032

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Willem's quote attributed to Pat Moynihan is spot-on, but I think Pat should have added, 'and keep those opinions to yourself unless properly thought through.

Wouldn't be as catchy, but would cut down on an awful lot of noise on forums, Twitter etc etc.

S
the problem with that strategy may well be that currently many people that are clearly uneducated and ill informed about life in general think they are experts on most everything .. it makes me glad that i am aware i'm clueless.. and if i ever forget those people will remind me..
 

Killingbeans

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My point was why is Covid political?
When I was a kid the world started to vaccinate to defeat Polio.
We won, polio is eliminated in most of the world, deaths are almost zero.
I don't recall any politics about it, it was a medical battle.
Why is this now so inconceivable?

It's a good question. I wish I knew the answer.

If I had to guess, I'd say it has something to do with the growing pains of the world population moving towards greater internationality, mixed with the fact that information has become the most valued commodity on the planet. Or rather the control of information.

It's just a different world we live in today. The fear of mutual assured destruction had been replaced by the fear of getting smeared on Twitter.
 

leeroy 85032

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It's a good question. I wish I knew the answer.

If I had to guess, I'd say it has something to do with the growing pains of the world population moving towards greater internationality, mixed with the fact that information has become the most valued commodity on the planet. Or rather the control of information.

It's just a different world we live in today. The fear of mutual assured destruction had been replaced by the fear of getting smeared on Twitter.
it's the internet.. it validates stupid ideas equally with ideas of merit ..
 
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