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thoughts on these balanced->unbalanced converters w/ common mode rejection?

kenshone

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Hey forum. To expand on the title, I'm looking for a way to convert a balanced signal into an unbalanced signal in a way that common mode rejection actually takes place. I'm looking for something transparent and cheap. If it can be unpowered (IDK if this is physically possible), even better.

Looking at these so far:

 
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DVDdoug

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I don't think that's what you're looking for. It would need a transformer or some active circuitry. There's no power supply and they don't mention a transformer, so I don't know.

Here are some possibilities

Or this
 

sam_adams

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Not cheap but the name speaks for itself:

 

AnalogSteph

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If memory serves, the Cleanbox Pro does not provide galvanic isolation, so you may need custom XLR cabling, and parts quality was also found to be rather lacking (carbon film resistors even in the balanced input stage, so with their generally wide tolerances of 3-5% don't expect any miracles from CMRR even in a best-case scenario). I won't be surprised if the construction is close to 20 years old.

What you would need basically is a balanced receiver, which is the kind of thing that can be integrated into an existing device fairly easily but gets really annoying if you have to add one externally. First there's the matter of powering the circuitry, and then you'll probably want to provide an extra ground connection for the XLR shields that's independent of audio ground, to be hooked up wherever shield currents are bypassing the complete unbalanced audio path (otherwise you'll have issues with AES48 compliance). It's all a bit ghetto.

If you can't be bothered with AES48 compliance (but consider custom ground-lifted XLR cables a valid option), then you might as well be using an ordinary compact mixer (the kind that comes with an external transformer power supply).

Pure transformer boxes often are fairly sensitive to output loading, so that's something else to keep in mind. The PC-2XR datasheet recommends 47 kOhm (or higher) || 150 pF (or less).

What kind of specific application / component pairing did you have in mind? Knowing that might make it easier to find a suitable solution.
 
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kenshone

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If memory serves, the Cleanbox Pro does not provide galvanic isolation, so you may need custom XLR cabling, and parts quality was also found to be rather lacking (carbon film resistors even in the balanced input stage, so with their generally wide tolerances of 3-5% don't expect any miracles from CMRR even in a best-case scenario). I won't be surprised if the construction is close to 20 years old.

What you would need basically is a balanced receiver, which is the kind of thing that can be integrated into an existing device fairly easily but gets really annoying if you have to add one externally. First there's the matter of powering the circuitry, and then you'll probably want to provide an extra ground connection for the XLR shields that's independent of audio ground, to be hooked up wherever shield currents are bypassing the complete unbalanced audio path (otherwise you'll have issues with AES48 compliance). It's all a bit ghetto.

If you can't be bothered with AES48 compliance (but consider custom ground-lifted XLR cables a valid option), then you might as well be using an ordinary compact mixer (the kind that comes with an external transformer power supply).

Pure transformer boxes often are fairly sensitive to output loading, so that's something else to keep in mind. The PC-2XR datasheet recommends 47 kOhm (or higher) || 150 pF (or less).

What kind of specific application / component pairing did you have in mind? Knowing that might make it easier to find a suitable solution.

Hey there. Thanks for the detailed response. The application is to send balanced signals to some subwoofers which only accept RCA inputs.
 

Slayer

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Pluto

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I'm looking for a way to convert a balanced signal into an unbalanced signal in a way that common mode rejection actually takes place. I'm looking for something transparent and cheap. If it can be unpowered (IDK if this is physically possible), even better.
These are terrific and meet all your requirements. I have a couple in regular use and can vouch for them in every respect.

Available at a pro-audio dealer near you.
 
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kenshone

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These are terrific and meet all your requirements. I have a couple in regular use and can vouch for them in every respect.

Available at a pro-audio dealer near you.

Interesting! I've tried these in the past, and they reduced the signal strength too much for my application at the time. Since they involve isolators/transformers, my understanding is that they remove *all* electrical noise from the signal at the point of conversion, rejecting 100% of common mode noise as well as ground loops. Is that correct? If so, I'll give them another try and see if the output signal is adequate to drive the subwoofers.
 

Pluto

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rejecting 100% of common mode noise as well as ground loops. Is that correct?
Not quite. 100% is physically impossible; the rejection level is defined by the parameter Common Mode Rejection Ratio, typically stated in dB.

I've not seen a figure claimed for these, but I would imagine it to be ≥40dB

my understanding is that they remove *all* electrical noise from the signal at the point of conversion
They do not remove existing noise which is embedded within the incoming signal (this would be very cool indeed, but impossible). The conversion process itself is essentially noiseless but you do loose a small amount of signal, nature's quid pro quo.

From my own use I can say that, if fed with proper pro levels at the XLR side, the level emerging from the RCA side is broadly compatible with what you would traditionally expect from RCA (phono) connectors. And vice versa. But bear in mind that some CD players have rather upped the ante for the level we would traditionally have expected out of RCA sockets, sometimes by 6dB or more.
 
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levimax

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There are a lot of different ways "balanced" can be implemented and they all have different CMRR with adapters having none and transformers being the highest. The link is to a good article that explains some of the differences. The trick is figuring out which technique is used in a commercial product. I would stick with either good transformers like Jensen or use a active product with a THAT chip. I have also built the balanced receivers and transmitters mentioned in the link with 0.1% resistors and had good results. There is no one "right answer" and it depends on your application.


 
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MCH

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These are terrific and meet all your requirements. I have a couple in regular use and can vouch for them in every respect.

Available at a pro-audio dealer near you.
Great, thanks gor sharing!
After reading the manual i have a couple of very noob questions.
The manual says "Only connect the unit to equipment with properly grounded mains power."
What if one of the devices has only two pin mains power connection?
Additionally, seems that only one of the two channels is connected to ground. Does this matter when, for instance, you want to connect your balanced dac to TWO different subs, one to each channel of the device?
Thanks a lot again!
 

Pluto

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What this device is guiding you towards, very succinctly, is single-point earthing, the best practice for audio. At the same time [“properly grounded mains power”], they are giving the appropriate safety advice i.e. never allow the audio cabling to (unwittingly) become the protective earth in a mains-powered rig hence, make sure that all your mains-powered devices are correctly earthed, via the mains wiring.

ART DTI.jpg


I'd rather not go into further discussion regarding earthing because earthing arrangements vary across our international community so, if you have earth-related problems, they are best addressed by someone familiar with your local arrangements and regulations.
 
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