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Thoughts on subjective speaker reviews and my own experiences within my listening room.

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Hank Nova

Hank Nova

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This has been my experience too (though I haven't moved mine that often!)
In the same way one excites the modes of the string in a guitar, say, differently and gets a different tone depending on where you pluck it you excite the room modes differently depending where the speaker is, and it is much more complex since it is a 3d space rather than 1d string.
A friend of mine has been doing room optimisation since long before electronic means were available and it is based on room treatment but even more so speaker and listening positions.
I did my listening room about 20 years ago myself based on what he told me and he came later with all his mearuring equipment to fine tune it.
A few years ago I bought an Antimode 2.0 device which made a difference but was only effective in my system on the computer output whereas I mainly used CDs and LPs so it is of limited use, but unlike lots of other people here I don't consider room correction to be crucial as long as the speakers and listening position are optimised.
Having written that few people would be happy with the aesthetics of the room with speakers optimally placed, so if it is a small room or family room this option may not be attractive, so having electronic means of achieving the effect becomes the easiest way out...

Well, you're supposed to optimize position prior to running room correction anyway. But at least in my setup, cycling back and forth between Dirac being on and off is pretty marked. The image has distinct edges, its like making the sound more etched without adding brightness. I quite like it. Whether it is neutral or not, I don't know haha
 

jhaider

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I'm not familiar with your work,

There's a link below :)

Unless a speaker is truly wretched, room correction will make any speaker sound pretty passable and it really irons out a lot of the differences between speakers.

That is not my experience at all. Room correction mitigates the influence of the room. Unless the speaker is an exceptionally poor design or the drive units are well out of spec, room correction will not impact a speaker's designed-in voicing at all.

My definition of "room correction" may be different than that used by some others. I define "room correction" as keeping the basic voicing of the speaker (in practice, that means eyeballing a curve fit below ~250Hz) but smoothing things out such that the response is smoother for a single seated listener. (Without multiple subwoofers, one cannot hope to optimize beyond that.)

For example, in evaluating Amphion's Argon 3S, I found the speaker's bass voicing led to about 1.5dB of "room gain" in the upper bass. So I set the room correction (I used a shiny new toy, ARC Genesis, for much of this review) to equalize the low end with that lift in mind.

The black line is the target curve. The red line is the measured spatially averaged frequency response, showing correction that stops at 250Hz. The green line is the predicted averaged response after ARC, a composite of the corrected response below 250Hz and the measured response above that.

figure 9 - Argon3 ARC Genesis png.png

Having done some (shoddy) amateur reviews (with outdoor measurements, though) myself, I realize that this is a lot of work and might not be economically feasible,

No comprehensive speaker review is "economically feasible." :)

They get done only because people want to share knowledge, despite an effective billable rate for the work of nil.

but I think a truly thorough speaker review would need to have the following.

1. Outdoor (pseudoanechoic) measurements at various angles so we can get an idea of the speakers native frequency response and dispersion characteristics

2. Evaluation of the speaker, with no EQ or room correction, in a fairly decent listening room where the reviewer has made a best effort to find some kind of optimal position for the speakers. (Not everybody runs EQ or room correction!)

3. Evaluation of the speaker with EQ and/or room correction, to give a sense of what the speaker can do when fully dialed in.

4. Optionally... if it's a small or otherwise bass-shy speaker, discussion of how it performs when crossed over to a subwoofer (or subwoofers)

Interesting perspective. I don't see the point of #2. The goal is to audition the speaker, not the room. Hopefully everyone here is familiar with Figure 6.1, from Dr. Toole's Sound Reproduction, 3rd ed., at 149:

Screen Shot 2019-10-18 at 8.59.49 AM.png


Also, the only time #4 would seem to be an issue is with a very quirky speaker, such as an open baffle or a very high tuned vented cabinet. Otherwise, properly executed subwoofer integration should have the same effect. I would add a properly averaged listening position FR to the list. Hopefully REW, FuzzMeasure, or another tool comes out with a routine to generate Spinoramas from appropriate measurements, or someone who knows Excel can make a template to apply the power response coefficients. I've seen it done in Excel (https://www.sausalitoaudio.com/data/) but it seems very difficult to apply the power response coefficients.

Also I wouldn't dismiss quasi-anechoic measurements, though unfortunately there are a lot of reviews that claim to have measurements but actually only have something completely useless and potentially highly misleading, such as a single-point listening position frequency response.
 
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Hank Nova

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Probably, but almost nobody does, IME, since they end up far too far into the room!

Yea, I realize not everyone has the luxury of an infintely malleable listening room :p
 

Purité Audio

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Speakers should be placed close, within 60 cm of the rear wall, it is simply that traditional passive designs have no mechanism to adjust their bass output.
Keith
 

Sal1950

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For example, in evaluating Amphion's Argon 3S, I found the speaker's bass voicing led to about 1.5dB of "room gain" in the upper bass. So I set the room correction (I used a shiny new toy, ARC Genesis, for much of this review) to equalize the low end with that lift in mind.

https://hometheaterhifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/figure-9-Argon3-ARC-Genesis.jpg

Jay, your link is broken,
Error 1011 Ray ID: 527bcdb54d92388c • 2019-10-18 16:14:08 UTC
Access denied

What happened?

The owner of this website (hometheaterhifi.com) does not allow hotlinking to that resource (/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/figure-9-Argon3-ARC-Genesis.jpg).
 

Ron Texas

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@jhaider thank you for the informative post. We need more of this, and less quibbling or even the occasional rudeness which seems to be on the rise lately.
 

JohnBooty

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I define "room correction" as keeping the basic voicing of the speaker (in practice, that means eyeballing a curve fit below ~250Hz)
I really appreciate your reply. That explains a lot. I think a lot of people (or at least me, personally) read "room correction" and may think it's some form of automatic room correction, which can alter the speaker's entire frequency response.

(To be fair, I have seen some amateur reviewers specifically mention turning this sort of automatic room correction on)

Small corrections to the bass to account for the realities of reproducing deep bass in a normal residential-sized room make sense. I think that's the one thing everybody agrees upon.

Interesting perspective. I don't see the point of #2. The goal is to audition the speaker, not the room. Hopefully everyone here is familiar with Figure 6.1, from Dr. Toole's Sound Reproduction, 3rd ed., at 149:

One could also say, "The goal is to audition the speaker, not the reviewer's EQ prowess!" or perhaps "The goal is to audition the speaker, not the EQ gymnastics forced upon the speaker by the reviewer's room!"

Some people prefer to run systems without EQ, because good EQ can be fairly expensive and involved, and they'd like to know how the speaker performs without it. Our brains already perform a lot of "room correction" and it is a lot of people's preference is to keep their two-channel systems pure and simple. In general I don't find it too necessary as long as it's a fairly reasonable, "average", residential room with carpets and furniture and bookshelves and such.

Have you seen this ASR thread, or the one it references? Dr. Toole has some spicy opinions on room EQ. Well, I say "spicy" as a joke. It's not that different from what we're saying. He of course agrees about the need to tame/correct the low end.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dr-floyd-toole-system-with-pictures.1564/

Toole: "There is a lot of new content, especially focused on cinema sound and how the X-curve and calibration processes are based on faulty data. I make a direct attack on "room EQ" which I regard as a disease in our industry - except at low frequencies, of course. There it can work for a single listener, unless one employs a multi-sub strategy to reduce seat-to-seat variations.Without trustworthy anechoic data on the loudspeakers it is not possible to interpret a steady-state room curve, and without interpretation one has no idea of what is causing what is seen in the curves, and what remedial measures must be taken. EQ is very limited in what it can do and some of the most common problems in loudspeakers can only be corrected with a better loudspeaker"

Also, the only time #4 would seem to be an issue is with a very quirky speaker, such as an open baffle or a very high tuned vented cabinet.

I think it's a common practical concern with bookshelf/standmount speakers - the eternal "do I need to run a subwoofer with these?" question. Ideally, obviously, many would love to skip the subwoofer(s) if at all possible. We like bass; we don't like giant boxes and integration headaches.

Additionally, my experience is that a lot of smaller 2-way speakers take on a whole new life when high-passed. A lot of those woofers in 2-way speakers are entirely different (and much clearer-sounding) beasts when those poor overworked woofer cones don't have to flop around trying to play those deep bass frequencies.

And that raises some additional questions. Can the speakers under review be crossed at 100hz? 80hz? 60hz? I prefer to cross speakers over no higher than 60hz; otherwise the subwoofer integration tends to never feel quite seamless to me.

Much of what I'd said in this section really only applies to smaller speakers, of course.

No comprehensive speaker review is "economically feasible." :)

They get done only because people want to share knowledge, despite an effective billable rate for the work of nil.
Amen. It is very very time-intensive work! And a lot of suggestions I've made would surely make a speaker review blow past time constraints and word count allotments.

Best wishes to you sir!
 
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Hank Nova

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Speakers should be placed close, within 60 cm of the rear wall, it is simply that traditional passive designs have no mechanism to adjust their bass output.
Keith

In my experience, that is a false statement. There are many variables to take into account, even if you isolated everything 300hz and up.
 

Purité Audio

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Nothing false about it, just look at any serious professional monitor manufacturers set up guide, you can find Genelec’s under ‘support’.
Keith
 

Ron Texas

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In my experience, that is a false statement. There are many variables to take into account, even if you isolated everything 300hz and up.

I wouldn't go so far as to say false. Sometimes it works, not always.
 
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Hank Nova

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Nothing false about it, just look at any serious professional monitor manufacturers set up guide, you can find Genelec’s under ‘support’.
Keith

Well, noting a maximum distance from the back wall without considering ceiling height and side wall distance is just operating on incomplete data. Not to mention that the time from rear wall reflections mixing with the original source from the speaker effects the sound.

Anecdotally, the difference between my speakers (mids and highs only) close to the rear wall and six feet out from it is night and day, no question about it. Every othet speaker I've ever experimented with has behaved similarly in this regard.

Referencing manufacturer's recommended setup procedures can be helpful, but it is far from objective evidence, since many manufacturers claim many things that are contradictory.

And before anyone starts demanding i prove a negative by saying that I'm not providing objective data either, I'd like to point out that I haven't made any assertions about facts, I've just disagreed based on my extensive experience with speaker positioning, that is admittedly unscientific. To be fair, the burden of proof would be on the one making the objective claim - "Speakers should be placed close, within 60 cm of the rear wall, it is simply that traditional passive designs have no mechanism to adjust their bass output."
 
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Hank Nova

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I wouldn't go so far as to say false. Sometimes it works, not always.

Just so I'm clear, I am definitely not claiming a setup CANNOT work within those parameters, I'm saying that claiming all speakers should be set up WITHIN those specific parameters is a false statement, in my experience, and I'm fairly sure it is objectively false, but I am not equipped to back up the objective argument hahaha:p
 

ernestcarl

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Just so I'm clear, I am definitely not claiming a setup CANNOT work within those parameters, I'm saying that claiming all speakers should be set up WITHIN those specific parameters is a false statement, in my experience, and I'm fairly sure it is objectively false, but I am not equipped to back up the objective argument hahaha:p

Different manufacturers specify different distances. This is actually based on acoustical science. There are always some unaccounted variables. So it's always best to do measurements to verify what works in your space.

I've actually 'violated' the 'rules' (more like guidelines) for my sub and monitors. My angles and distances are nearly ALL 'wrong'.

Fortunately, the measurements aren't that bad.
 

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Hank Nova

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Different manufacturers specify different distances. This is actually based on acoustical science. There are always some unaccounted variables. So it's always best to do measurements to verify what works in your space.

I've actually 'violated' the 'rules' (more like guidelines) for my sub and monitors. My angles and distances are nearly ALL 'wrong'.

Fortunately, the measurements aren't that bad.

I agree. My Klipsch sub instructed me to place it in a corner, my Atlantic and JL subs say never place a sub in the corner. Recommendations vary by brand, so it's hard to just pick one and call it the truth.
 

ernestcarl

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Oh yeah! Sorry, I did forget to mention the KH120s here has one PEQ: +6dB at 120Hz; and for the sub two: -6dB at 34Hz & -3 at 30Hz. But that's it! Very minor. No other 'auto' room correction or EQ.
 

jhaider

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Speakers should be placed close, within 60 cm of the rear wall, it is simply that traditional passive designs have no mechanism to adjust their bass output.

What's the rationale for that? I'm not saying it's a good or bad concept. I've just never seen such a placement rule before, and would like to know more about it.
 

jhaider

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Jay, your link is broken,
Error 1011 Ray ID: 527bcdb54d92388c • 2019-10-18 16:14:08 UTC
Access denied

What happened?

The owner of this website (hometheaterhifi.com) does not allow hotlinking to that resource (/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/figure-9-Argon3-ARC-Genesis.jpg).

Well, I guess you found the answer is your second line. I edited my earlier post to include an upload of the figure.

I really appreciate your reply. That explains a lot. I think a lot of people (or at least me, personally) read "room correction" and may think it's some form of automatic room correction, which can alter the speaker's entire frequency response.

I am talking about automatic room correction, albeit automatic correction limited to work only below about 250Hz. In principle, all three of the major automated systems can be so used. ARC and Dirac are a lot less clunky than Audyssey. In the first two you can actually see the measured response in the curve editor, and set the curve on a computer. Audyssey keeps measurements separate from the curve editor, and only runs on an iPhone. But Audyssey works too, and I've used it in this manner.

IOne could also say, "The goal is to audition the speaker, not the reviewer's EQ prowess!" or perhaps "The goal is to audition the speaker, not the EQ gymnastics forced upon the speaker by the reviewer's room!"

In practice, ARC, Audyssey, and Dirac all do a good job of hitting the intended target response. I've documented that in my review of the Bryston SP4 for Dirac, and earlier reviews of a Denon AVR and Marantz SSP for Audyssey. Dr. David Rich has done the same for ARC. So it doesn't require abnormal skill to eyeball a trend line in spatially averaged measurements, and set a room correction system to follow it.

Have you seen this ASR thread, or the one it references? Dr. Toole has some spicy opinions on room EQ. Well, I say "spicy" as a joke. It's not that different from what we're saying. He of course agrees about the need to tame/correct the low end.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/dr-floyd-toole-system-with-pictures.1564/

My practice is consistent with Dr. Toole's point of view, I think.

my experience is that a lot of smaller 2-way speakers take on a whole new life when high-passed. A lot of those woofers in 2-way speakers are entirely different (and much clearer-sounding) beasts when those poor overworked woofer cones don't have to flop around trying to play those deep bass frequencies.

Truthfully, I've never heard that not happen. That's why I think it would require a very quirky speaker design, such as a very high tuned vented box or an open baffle, for subwoofers not to benefit the whole spectrum as well as image size.

And that raises some additional questions. Can the speakers under review be crossed at 100hz? 80hz? 60hz? I prefer to cross speakers over no higher than 60hz; otherwise the subwoofer integration tends to never feel quite seamless to me.

My experience is opposite. My front speakers have decent SPL capability. They are 3-way speakers with twin 7" woofers playing up to 400Hz, with a steep lowpass. Yet I get the best results with the 4 subs playing up to 120Hz.

Placement may have something to do with it. Two of the subs are very close to the front speakers. The subwoofers themselves may, too. Prior to processing, three of the four subwoofers have response up to about 2kHz!

Best wishes to you sir!

Same to you!
 

ernestcarl

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And that raises some additional questions. Can the speakers under review be crossed at 100hz? 80hz? 60hz? I prefer to cross speakers over no higher than 60hz; otherwise the subwoofer integration tends to never feel quite seamless to me.

Historically, I got the best 'seamless' response when I crossed my S8 monitors anywhere between 100-120Hz -- BUT only when the sub is placed closer to the centre of the room (which a lot of people say not to do!)

Since the best placement was ergonomically and aesthetically horrible/stupid, I opted for a much 'worse' placement as a compromise with the KH120 (overlapping my sub and speaker crossovers until eventually getting it, meh, close enough) -- you do what you have to do. There's a bit more bass smearing, but nothing I can't deal with.

@jhaider
*I would have loved to have 4 subs, too -- but I don't have the space, as well as being just simply cheap.
 
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napilopez

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What's the rationale for that? I'm not saying it's a good or bad concept. I've just never seen such a placement rule before, and would like to know more about it.

See Genelec's description here. Page 9. The rationale is that above 60cm or so cancellations will be more noticeable and higher in amplitude. Putting the speaker closer to the wall pushes the cancellation frequency higher, where it would presumably be less noticeable.

That aside, I thought I might share some of my dissenting thoughts on topics in this thread as someone who writes speaker reviews and takes many quasi-anechoic, off-axis measurements.

My case is a little different, as I'm writing for a very mainstream tech publication as opposed to an audio-specific one, so I think it's important to keep some audience context in mind. Nonetheless, I generally believe that speakers should be reviewed as is - as that's the way most buyers will use them. Point out possible improvements where possible, but don't rely on making improvements the consumer is unlikely to make (even if you tell them they should).

On using room correction below Schroeder for reviews (as opposed to for personal listening): I'm on the fence. The best is to try both with and without, which I do. I run room EQ for every speaker I test, and listen both ways.

However, I generally find I get more consistent impressions without, as Room EQ can be inconsistent from speaker to speaker and measurement to measurement. Moreover I know where the peaks and nulls are in my room, and I feel I get a better impression of the speaker's innate performance depending on how the nodes are excited. Bass performance among speakers seems to blend among speakers once I turn on EQ.

For personal listening purposes, of course, I recommend EQ though.

On using a sub for reviews to fill in nulls or 'free up' the woofer: Similar to the above. But perhaps more importantly, I think it's unreasonable to expect readers to have or buy a sub. At least, it certainly is for my audience. I do often recommend subs with bookshelf soeskers, mind you, but I know most won't purchase one. Especially with budget speakers.

On reviewing speakers in a treated room and concerns over differences between rooms:

I do not think this is necessary, as I think room treatment is sometimes a bit overblown in the context of home listening. As Toole points out in his book, we are really really good at adapting to our spaces and being able to hear the sound of a speaker "through" the room (above Schroeder). Having some reflections even seems good.

An audio show, where you're constantly switching between rooms and setups, is a different story. But at home, where I'm used to the sound of my apartment, the differences between speakers positioned roughly similarly are obvious.

On optimal positioning:
I think most pro audio reviewers take the care to tweak placement, but realistically, I'd be willing to bet most are using the same general location for their speakers. In many homes, placement is dictated by furniture. That's certainly the case with me. If I change something, it's toe in angle, but almost all my speakers are tested from the same spots.

A small defense of subjective reviews:
I would prefer every review include on and off axis measurements. But My impression is that experienced subjective reviewers are often quite good at describing a speaker's overall tonality. A bright speaker is called bright. A speaker with good bass extension is described as having good bass extension. A mid-heavy speaker is called so. Etc.

Measurements should correlate with our impressions after all. Rarely have I found a subjective review where descriptions of timbre and tonality are totally off from the measurements. Occasionally, but rarely.

There are also some aspects of sound that are harder to convey and interpret through measurements. Things like dynamics, transient response, soundstage focus. Of course, you can always measure more things, but realistically, only the engineers really have the time and impetus to measure every single little parameter.

The real issue with subjective reviews for me is in how they assess value. A cheap speaker might measure better than an expensive one, but the more expensive one has to be better because... Well, it's more expensive, right? Reviewers (myself included) rarely have the resources to perform proper sighted A/B tests - let alone blind ones - to reduce the impact of their biases. That's where measurements come in.
 
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