Thoughts on DAC, ADC and Preamp that I'm considering

[Nezil]

A few months back, after building my desktop listening setup:

• MacBook Pro + Apple Music
• Topping DX5 II
• Topping PA5 II
• Pioneer SP-BS22-LR based Affordable Accuracy Monitors
• Elac S10.2 Sub

I embarked on an upgrade of my home theater and main music system. In a previous home, I'd had a 7.1 setup with a projector, but this was pre-streaming was truly mainstream and before Atmos and after moving house, the new living room didn't lend itself to placing surround speakers in reasonable locations.

In summary I ended getting a Denon AVR-X4800H, DIY building new Helios TX front speakers, running new wires across the ceiling and through walls to in-wall and in-ceiling speakers getting me to a 7.1.4 setup, and EQing the whole thing using A1 Evo.

Most recently, in an attempt to step up the stereo listening quality, I added Topping B200s to drive the Helios TX. Using passive RCA to Balanced cables and High Gain on the B200s does work, but is resulting in EQ having to apply a +7.5 dB gain to the front channels. This is close to the limit of what Audyssey will let you do; it does work, but I'd like to somehow boost the output of the AVR, and I'd also like to improve the 2 ch listening experience a bit as well.

I sold all 7 of the speakers from my old setup this evening, so have a little cash to put towards making some upgrades, and I've been considering the following:

• Using a good DAC + iPad + Apple Music as a 2ch source, driving the B200s balanced and using the DAC as the volume control, with either...
  • miniDSP PocketADC (or Adept) to convert the AVR RCA output to digital, and then use DAC as a preamp with balanced output to the B200s
  • A preamp to boost the output of the AVR as well as convert from single ended to balanced

I really appreciate the PEQ feature of the DX5 II on my desk, but don't need the headphone amplifier stage in the living room. The problem is, I can't find a DAC with a similar PEQ feature set other than the Topping D90 III Discrete.

Going analogue RCA -> Digital -> DAC -> analogue balanced feels wrong, but it's actually far cheaper than an appropriate preamp like the Topping Pre90. Having said that, it also feels wrong to put an additional preamp component between a DAC and amplifier if the DAC has a preamp feature!

What's unclear to me is why preamps exist if most DACs these days already include a pre-amp feature. Are dedicated preamps 'better' in some way, or to say it another way, are the preamp features of a DAC poor quality?

Assuming I can't find a suitable alternative, I think I'm having to decide between the following options:

1. Topping D90 III Discrete
   1. + miniDSP PocketADC
   2. + miniDSP Adept
   3. + Topping Pre90
2. Topping DX5 II
   1. + miniDSP PocketADC
   2. + miniDSP Adept
   3. + Topping Pre90

Any thoughts on what might be the best / right thing to do? Any other options that I should be considering?

Thanks in advance folks!

 

[voodooless]

There is zero point in adding a ADC/DAC to your chain. Fix the gain issue by getting an amp that has more gain. Clearly the B200 is not a good fit.

If you want to tinker, you could buy one of those DRV134 based single ended to balanced boards. They give a 6 dB boost in gain.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

What's unclear to me is why preamps exist if most DACs these days already include a pre-amp feature. Are dedicated preamps 'better' in some way, or to say it another way, are the preamp features of a DAC poor quality?

Preamplifiers exist because people buy them, although I feel there are fewer than there used to be.

There's nothing wrong with volume attenuation within a DAC, as long as it's done in 32 bit float. BUT, because a DAC's default setting is full volume, there's a risk that a software glitch can suddenly set the DAC to full volume, damaging speakers and hearing. A preamplifier de-risks this.

 

[Billyboy]

Hi there, I guess this is the most recent thread on the DACs with true preamp stage.
I want to pair my ATC 19 actives with a DAC/Preamp with dedicated analog ladder. My aim is to cover the analog side to the extent possible in order to avoid tech obsolescense (invest once in this and keep it 5+ years). I will later buy a streamer (e.g. IFI Zen, Wiim Ultra ) to deal with all the tech/digital issues (bring in HDMI eARC etc.) and renew it more frequently. Just need a USB output on the streamer and a USB input in the DAC to push the reclocking function to the DAC.
As far as i can see, there are below DAC/Preamps:
1. Emotiva XDA-3
2. Benchmark DAC3 L
3. Garlubidor Divinity
I know the price range is quite wide but any experience with these gear? Generally the reviews in Youtube etc. are commercial focused and not giving insight on the practicality? Any other suggestions are welcome as well!
Thanks in advance,

 

[linuxfan]

If you want to tinker, you could buy one of those DRV134 based single ended to balanced boards.

I agree. I think a single-ended to differential converter is needed between the Denon pre-outs and the B200's.
Such products are usually DIY, and DRV134 boards can be had for $15 or so, though I can find a fully finished version here -
https://www.brz-hifi-audio.com/prod...-rca-to-xlr-drv134-converter?VariantsId=10125

Also there are high quality variants available - for substantially more money - and a well regarded example is the Neurochrome Universal Buffer -
https://neurochrome.com/products/universal-buffer
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/universal-buffer-achieving-140-dbc-0-00001-thd.346956/
I believe it has quite high gain.

 

[Roland68]

Hi there, I guess this is the most recent thread on the DACs with true preamp stage.
I want to pair my ATC 19 actives with a DAC/Preamp with dedicated analog ladder. My aim is to cover the analog side to the extent possible in order to avoid tech obsolescense (invest once in this and keep it 5+ years). I will later buy a streamer (e.g. IFI Zen, Wiim Ultra ) to deal with all the tech/digital issues (bring in HDMI eARC etc.) and renew it more frequently. Just need a USB output on the streamer and a USB input in the DAC to push the reclocking function to the DAC.
As far as i can see, there are below DAC/Preamps:
1. Emotiva XDA-3
2. Benchmark DAC3 L
3. Garlubidor Divinity
I know the price range is quite wide but any experience with these gear? Generally the reviews in Youtube etc. are commercial focused and not giving insight on the practicality? Any other suggestions are welcome as well!
Thanks in advance,

Are you looking for a DAC with an integrated analog preamplifier/volume control, or do you also need analog inputs?

 

[Billyboy]

Are you looking for a DAC with an integrated analog preamplifier/volume control, or do you also need analog inputs?

I dont need analog inputs (although it was the case for the emotiva). Also dont need headphone amp or phono stage

 

[Roland68]

I dont need analog inputs (although it was the case for the emotiva). Also dont need headphone amp or phono stage

Then I can recommend the SMSL D200.
It has a rather elaborate analog preamplifier built in, completely channel-separated with analog and precise absolutely channel-equal balanced volume control. This includes a separate buffer stage after the volume control and no coupling capacitors in the signal path.
The measured values should be equal to or better than those of the devices listed. @NTTY was kind enough to test this DAC for the forum.

I've been using the DAC for a few weeks now, and it's absolutely excellent, regardless of the price. Two friends have also installed it in their extremely expensive systems and eliminated their preamplifiers, which cost 10-20 times as much. In both cases, the analog phono preamps are connected via the MiniDSP PocketADC, which is definitely no worse than using the expensive preamps before. Both are a little apprehensive because they now have two very inexpensive Chinese devices in their expensive systems, but in both cases, the blind comparison was convincing. The better is the enemy of the good.

Alternatively, there's the Topping DX9 and DX9 Discrete, which also feature a very sophisticated analog preamplifier section, channel-separated with relay-based volume control (also perfectly equal to the channels). These units even have completely separate preamplifier stages for single-ended and balanced outputs. These units are also tried and tested and highly recommended.

RME does have a digital volume control, but its output stage is excellent. However, the units are likely currently sold out. The new ones are expected to be unveiled this month, but since they are still under development, there are no delivery dates yet.

 

[Billyboy]

Thanks Roland, I'm currently using Minidsp SHD for as an integrated streamer/dac/preamp and analog volume control is one of the enhancements I've been considering to upgrade it. I haven't given much consideration to the Topping so far but both seems interesting. Will dig further now !
Thanks

 

[linuxfan]

Fix the gain issue by getting an amp that has more gain.

I think a single-ended to differential converter is needed between the Denon pre-outs and the B200's.

Another possible choice of device for unbalanced-to-balanced gain would be the OP's Topping Pre90 preamp ...
as it appears the OP has already done, from this separate forum thread -

I wasn't expecting to keep the Pre90, but my DIY front speakers are pretty low sensitivity, using it allows me to add enough gain to compensate for that, along with boosting the lower single ended output from the AVR, and run the B200s in low gain mode.

 

[voodooless]

Well, that works, at least

But the conclusion is still wrong. It's not the speakers that are the problem; it's the gain of the amp.

 

[berjine]

Well, that works, at least

But the conclusion is still wrong. It's not the speakers that are the problem; it's the gain of the amp.

Yeah the B200 is 22dB, A7 is 29dB and less expensive, solution is simple to me