Thought similar amps that test well here on ASR should sound the same?

[kyuu]

The common advice of avoiding EQ of the higher frequencies is usually in relation to trying to correct for in-room response. If you're correcting the speaker's anechoic response (assuming good directivity at the relevant frequencies) or just applying essentially a tone control then there's no issue with that.

 

[Sokel]

I am going to give it another go tonight. In the scenario you suggest, should I measure each speaker separately from one meter directly in front? Should i put the mic head right at tweeter level? My previous REW use was to measure around listening postion so that I could create EQ files to make the room sound better. This will the first time of trying to take the room out of it. I will include the .mdat with the post this time as well.

Directly in front with the right cal file, yes, at its acoustic center if possible (tweeter or a little lower, in-between the tweeter and mid, whatever seems nicer to you, you;ll see)
Even one speaker will do, so you won't have to touch the mic, the difference will be evident if there.

If it's a power thing try with both speakers as well.

 

[kemmler3D]

As an aside, not sure I didn't try something like this sooner. I had stuck with the common advice of avoiding EQ of the higher frequencies. Last night I used the NCX500 graph and focused on the zone in question. Created a simple 3 band filter that sounded really nice to my ears. No fatigue and got me to the same sound that I am used to with the other amps I own.

Yep, this is a nuance that probably trips people up who are trying to do it the right way... as @kyuu mentions, room correction of high frequency (with narrow adjustments above the transition frequency) tends to cause problems because the correction is only helpful at the mic location and +/- a distance corresponding to the wavelength you're correcting. Which at 5khz is only about 7cm, not very useful.

But tone adjustments with wide filters don't suffer from this problem and are totally fine and useful to dial in a response you like.

 

[wavetrade]

Seems I was wrong and must have had some sort of problem at the mic when I first tested and posted. Feel really stupid questioning this on the forum and finding out that whatever I thought I heard differently with the NCX500 amp was all in my head. Today I tried again as Sokel suggested with the mic 2 feet in front of the speaker. Tested both left and right individually. With the NCX500 and A7 using Paradigm 700F's. Both amps gave exactly the same graphs when comparing right to right and left to left.

Sadly I messed up and closed REW without first saving the results. I got distracted when this testing reveled that the left and right Paradigm speakers had different results above 14Khz. One speaker sloped up from here, and the other sloped down with a total 4db difference at 20Khz. I know I can't hear above 14Khz but this won't be something I get out of my head easily. I verified by physically changing speakers on the right side, in front of an untouched mic and tested again with the same result.

From here I still had the NCX500 hooked up and I switched speakers to KEF LS50M (and this time I forgot to turn off my sub). Then repeated the tests I lost earlier, but now with different speakers. I also compared using the PA5 II rather than the A7 amp. I was curious how it performed and had already seen the A7 and NCX500 amps perform identically. Bottom line is all three amps give exactly the same graph when testing from 2 feet in front of the speaker. Sorry for being so wrong, but I did learn a few things along the way, so thank you for all the constructive posts.

Here is the comparison of my NCX500 amp vs the PA5 II.

 

[kyuu]

No need to apologize. Glad you figured it out!

 

[kemmler3D]

Seems I was wrong and must have had some sort of problem at the mic when I first tested and posted. Feel really stupid questioning this on the forum and finding out that whatever I thought I heard differently with the NCX500 amp was all in my head. Today I tried again as Sokel suggested with the mic 2 feet in front of the speaker. Tested both left and right individually. With the NCX500 and A7 using Paradigm 700F's. Both amps gave exactly the same graphs when comparing right to right and left to left.

Sadly I messed up and closed REW without first saving the results. I got distracted when this testing reveled that the left and right Paradigm speakers had different results above 14Khz. One speaker sloped up from here, and the other sloped down with a total 4db difference at 20Khz. I know I can't hear above 14Khz but this won't be something I get out of my head easily. I verified by physically changing speakers on the right side, in front of an untouched mic and tested again with the same result.

From here I still had the NCX500 hooked up and I switched speakers to KEF LS50M (and this time I forgot to turn off my sub). Then repeated the tests I lost earlier, but now with different speakers. I also compared using the PA5 II rather than the A7 amp. I was curious how it performed and had already seen the A7 and NCX500 amps perform identically. Bottom line is all three amps give exactly the same graph when testing from 2 feet in front of the speaker. Sorry for being so wrong, but I did learn a few things along the way, so thank you for all the constructive posts.

Here is the comparison of my NCX500 amp vs the PA5 II. View attachment 495476

I'll just say that acknowledging and accepting this result puts you ahead of 90% of people and sharing the result publicly puts you ahead of 99%. It's quite common for people to invest themselves in a certain heard observation and end up fighting for it like a sports team.

 

[wavetrade]

No need to apologize. Glad you figured it out!

I had long ago got rid of my doubts about speaker cables an interconnects. Then finally got comfortable that good testing dacs sound the same. But I felt certain this NCX500 amp was a little brighter than the others and funny enough messed up the first test and got results that validated it. Not sure what happened in the first test, I really don't think the mic moved. And everything except the high frequencies matched up.

Now I can focus on mismatched speakers, LOL. And also worth mentioning that testing 2 feet in front of the speaker showed just how pronounced the highs were with the paradigms. I do like this type of sound, particularly with movies, but it might be a bit too much with music.

 

[wavetrade]

I'll just say that acknowledging and accepting this result puts you ahead of 90% of people and sharing the result publicly puts you ahead of 99%. It's quite common for people to invest themselves in a certain heard observation and end up fighting for it like a sports team.

Thank you. I felt sure this time was different with this amp. Hope seeing measured results gets my head permanently in order with it. I like the power it provides.

The opa1612 opamps arrived today. I had read Amir's tests and was already accepting that they won't make any difference as well. But this new set looks so quality that I might put them in anyways. I ordered them through a Idaho company that sells bit8, and other adapters, and will mount a selection of opamps. I have never seen such clean soldering.

 

[Sokel]

I had long ago got rid of my doubts about speaker cables an interconnects. Then finally got comfortable that good testing dacs sound the same. But I felt certain this NCX500 amp was a little brighter than the others and funny enough messed up the first test and got results that validated it. Not sure what happened in the first test, I really don't think the mic moved. And everything except the high frequencies matched up.

Now I can focus on mismatched speakers, LOL. And also worth mentioning that testing 2 feet in front of the speaker showed just how pronounced the highs were with the paradigms. I do like this type of sound, particularly with movies, but it might be a bit too much with music.

Glad you figured things out.
About Paradigm's rising highs, it's normal to see such a response at only two feet in a room with a 3-way speaker, try about 3 feet and above, try different height around the tweeter to find the acoustic center and then gate the measurements like this, following the yellow numbers:

This way you get rid of some of the room but the results are only valid for highs.
Use 1/12 or 1/24 smoothing.
You still get the idea of the response though.

You can also apply this to previous saved measurements.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

Seems I was wrong and must have had some sort of problem at the mic when I first tested and posted. Feel really stupid questioning this on the forum and finding out that whatever I thought I heard differently with the NCX500 amp was all in my head. Today I tried again as Sokel suggested with the mic 2 feet in front of the speaker. Tested both left and right individually. With the NCX500 and A7 using Paradigm 700F's. Both amps gave exactly the same graphs when comparing right to right and left to left.

Sadly I messed up and closed REW without first saving the results. I got distracted when this testing reveled that the left and right Paradigm speakers had different results above 14Khz. One speaker sloped up from here, and the other sloped down with a total 4db difference at 20Khz. I know I can't hear above 14Khz but this won't be something I get out of my head easily. I verified by physically changing speakers on the right side, in front of an untouched mic and tested again with the same result.

From here I still had the NCX500 hooked up and I switched speakers to KEF LS50M (and this time I forgot to turn off my sub). Then repeated the tests I lost earlier, but now with different speakers. I also compared using the PA5 II rather than the A7 amp. I was curious how it performed and had already seen the A7 and NCX500 amps perform identically. Bottom line is all three amps give exactly the same graph when testing from 2 feet in front of the speaker. Sorry for being so wrong, but I did learn a few things along the way, so thank you for all the constructive posts.

Here is the comparison of my NCX500 amp vs the PA5 II. View attachment 495476

Being wrong may not feel like a happy ending to this saga, but it is, because two wonderful, life-affirming things happened:
1) you admitted you were wrong and learned something new and important
2) in the process you provided some new evidence to support a well agreed-upon principle

I love this thread

 

[JeremyFife]

Seems I was wrong and must have had some sort of problem at the mic when I first tested and posted. Feel really stupid questioning this on the forum and finding out that whatever I thought I heard differently with the NCX500 amp was all in my head. Today I tried again as Sokel suggested with the mic 2 feet in front of the speaker. Tested both left and right individually. With the NCX500 and A7 using Paradigm 700F's. Both amps gave exactly the same graphs when comparing right to right and left to left.

Sadly I messed up and closed REW without first saving the results. I got distracted when this testing reveled that the left and right Paradigm speakers had different results above 14Khz. One speaker sloped up from here, and the other sloped down with a total 4db difference at 20Khz. I know I can't hear above 14Khz but this won't be something I get out of my head easily. I verified by physically changing speakers on the right side, in front of an untouched mic and tested again with the same result.

From here I still had the NCX500 hooked up and I switched speakers to KEF LS50M (and this time I forgot to turn off my sub). Then repeated the tests I lost earlier, but now with different speakers. I also compared using the PA5 II rather than the A7 amp. I was curious how it performed and had already seen the A7 and NCX500 amps perform identically. Bottom line is all three amps give exactly the same graph when testing from 2 feet in front of the speaker. Sorry for being so wrong, but I did learn a few things along the way, so thank you for all the constructive posts.

Here is the comparison of my NCX500 amp vs the PA5 II. View attachment 495476

Kudos for your initial post, your measurement approach and your thought process.
I learn more from these sort of posts than almost anything.

Glad you got it sorted, and thank you for a great post.

 

[Ropeburn]

Seems I was wrong and must have had some sort of problem at the mic when I first tested and posted. Feel really stupid questioning this on the forum and finding out that whatever I thought I heard differently with the NCX500 amp was all in my head. Today I tried again as Sokel suggested with the mic 2 feet in front of the speaker. Tested both left and right individually. With the NCX500 and A7 using Paradigm 700F's. Both amps gave exactly the same graphs when comparing right to right and left to left.

Sadly I messed up and closed REW without first saving the results. I got distracted when this testing reveled that the left and right Paradigm speakers had different results above 14Khz. One speaker sloped up from here, and the other sloped down with a total 4db difference at 20Khz. I know I can't hear above 14Khz but this won't be something I get out of my head easily. I verified by physically changing speakers on the right side, in front of an untouched mic and tested again with the same result.

From here I still had the NCX500 hooked up and I switched speakers to KEF LS50M (and this time I forgot to turn off my sub). Then repeated the tests I lost earlier, but now with different speakers. I also compared using the PA5 II rather than the A7 amp. I was curious how it performed and had already seen the A7 and NCX500 amps perform identically. Bottom line is all three amps give exactly the same graph when testing from 2 feet in front of the speaker. Sorry for being so wrong, but I did learn a few things along the way, so thank you for all the constructive posts.

Here is the comparison of my NCX500 amp vs the PA5 II. View attachment 495476

Nice! This is EXACTLY the kind of mistake you actually want to make - and then investigate and ask for help and try more and finally arrive at the truth and learn something along the way. You did science here, literally. Thumbs up!

 

[voodooless]

Feel really stupid questioning this on the forum

Don’t! Because you did it in the correct way. You had a hypothesis and went though all the trouble to prove it! Making mistakes happens to all of us. So you sought advice, redid the tests and finally came to a new conclusion. This is textbook what this community is all about. Kudos!

 

[mglobe]

Seems I was wrong and must have had some sort of problem at the mic when I first tested and posted. Feel really stupid questioning this on the forum and finding out that whatever I thought I heard differently with the NCX500 amp was all in my head. Today I tried again as Sokel suggested with the mic 2 feet in front of the speaker. Tested both left and right individually. With the NCX500 and A7 using Paradigm 700F's. Both amps gave exactly the same graphs when comparing right to right and left to left.

Sadly I messed up and closed REW without first saving the results. I got distracted when this testing reveled that the left and right Paradigm speakers had different results above 14Khz. One speaker sloped up from here, and the other sloped down with a total 4db difference at 20Khz. I know I can't hear above 14Khz but this won't be something I get out of my head easily. I verified by physically changing speakers on the right side, in front of an untouched mic and tested again with the same result.

From here I still had the NCX500 hooked up and I switched speakers to KEF LS50M (and this time I forgot to turn off my sub). Then repeated the tests I lost earlier, but now with different speakers. I also compared using the PA5 II rather than the A7 amp. I was curious how it performed and had already seen the A7 and NCX500 amps perform identically. Bottom line is all three amps give exactly the same graph when testing from 2 feet in front of the speaker. Sorry for being so wrong, but I did learn a few things along the way, so thank you for all the constructive posts.

Here is the comparison of my NCX500 amp vs the PA5 II. View attachment 495476

This thread is a winner in all respects due to your attitude and transparency.

 

[wavetrade]

Thank you for all of the positive reinforcement, I appreciate it.

Wondering if I could get opinions on one more question regarding my two Paradigm speakers. I retested them this morning on the right channel with each speaker in the same spot, microphone 3 feet away (and stationary). Here are graphs, one with Var smoothing and the other with 1/24 smoothing.

Would this discrepancy between speakers bother any of you? I know for a fact I can ony hear to 14Khz but I am fussy and this pair of speakers is new. I also have the bookshelf version of this line and they test as a perfect looking match. Same with the LS50M's.

 

[kyuu]

It really almost just looks like the tweeter on one of the speakers is a dB or two hotter than the other one. Could be due to the values on one of the crossover components being a bit off?

 

[wavetrade]

It really almost just looks like the tweeter on one of the speakers is a dB or two hotter than the other one. Could be due to the values on one of the crossover components being a bit off?

I have been guessing the same thing. Also guessing this type of thing is likely common as these speakers are boxed individually, not sold as matched pairs. I am not liking finding this out though, particularly since I checked the other speakers around my house and the pairs all matched nicely. Trying to temper my feelings as I suspect this degree of difference doesn't really matter.

I do find it weird that the hotter one drops off quicker.

 

[Ropeburn]

That's actually a widely overlooked thing in reviews and measurements, variation between speakers. Rarely ever tested. Most measure only one speaker.

I seem to remember a teardown video with driver TS parameter measurements that compared those of both speakers. Don't remember which one it was though, and how big they were. But there were some.

+- 0.5 to 1dB sounds about right for what is usual. Will have to look into that. 1dB or less wouldn't bother me personally, I'd be surprised if the tolerances of big series production is +-0.1 or something. And that's just the drivers. Crossover tolerances add to that.

Edit: Found the video:

Elac UBR62 teardown video, with TS parameter measurements of drivers, including driver comparison between speakers. Relevant part from 4:20.

5% Zmax variation between bass drivers, but a whopping 21% between mid drivers. Tweeters 3%.

No idea how exactly these tolerances translate to efficiency in the respective frequency ranges, but it shows there's a lot of variation there. Not a cheap speaker either.

 

[wavetrade]

Thanks for finding this Ropeburn. Makes me feel a bit better about these speakers.

Thing is I got them from my local stereo shop that would easily let me exchange them, particularly so if go more expensive. But I really like this shop and still hate to do this. They let me take home all sorts of expensive fun stuff to test for a few days. I should of done this with these speakers. It is tricky as I find I like really neutral speakers in my bedroom with hardwood floors. But out in my larger carpeted living room I tend to prefer a bit of the "consumer sound" with boosted highs. I also tend to watch movies with this setup and recently upgraded to a SB3000 sub that I am loving. Don't think I can ever go back from having a bluetooth app to control things.

Might just go talk with them and see what they say. They have Founder 40's in stock. Erin's testing of them left him meh, but the issues were minor and might fit well for what I want in this room. Glad that I now have good evidence that my most powerful amp is just fine.