This audio cable business is getting out of hand...

[Sal1950]

The best regardless of price is the Blue Jeans Cable LC-1.

You probably can't find a better cable at any price for audio use but they do have a couple negatives. The coax used is very stiff and difficult to make tight bents with. Also the connectors used are quite long adding to the difficulty of making a bend that allows gear to be placed close to the wall behind.
I haven't measured the Monoprice Premium but they use good connectors and are super low priced. In the short 1/2 meter runs I use I'm fairly confident the LRC is competent. For my long subwoofer runs I purchased some specialty cables from the SVS subwoofer people on sale.

 

[ajawamnet]

As long as you apply the math correctly. The main point is that any ground currents are kept separate from the signal path, so cable and shielding resistance becomes a non-issue.

I think you mean common mode signals - not just ground currents - are tanked out by the shield. That's not always the case. In fact I recently posted this on another topic here, where the failure of a neutral caused issues. The worst of it was picked up by brandy new Studer A827, but the entire studio had equipment that was affected.

See the story here: http://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawamnet/studiohum.html

All gear was running balanced at +4 dBm:

 

[Julf]

I think you mean common mode signals - not just ground currents - are tanked out by the shield. That's not always the case. In fact I recently posted this on another topic here, where the failure of a neutral caused issues.

Failures are failures.

 

[Speedskater]

What is causing that leakage current?

Mostly it's your hi-fi components power transformers.
But it and a ton of other good stuff is in the Bill Whitlock seminar paper (near page 63):
http://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf

 

[LTig]

Sure, and there is of course the case of that well-known British audio brand who left out the zobel network on the output of their amps, making them oscillate unless you use the right cables.

Yeah, I once borrowed such a power amplifier and connected it to the MG 1.6 I had back then. I switched it on and it screemed "Naiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiim". I jumped to switch it off but the safety fuses for the tweeters were already blown. Luckily I had some spares and otherwise the Maggies had survived. I brought it back and told the story and the answer was "Sorry, we forget to give you the proper cables". That was enough reason for me to stay away from this amp as far as I could.

 

[Julf]

Mostly it's your hi-fi components power transformers.

So the numbers you quoted are just for one specific example?

 

[ajawamnet]

Mostly it's your hi-fi components power transformers.
But it and a ton of other good stuff is in the Bill Whitlock seminar paper (near page 63):
http://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf

Bill's an amazing guy. I talked with him years ago concerning transformers for a custom thing we were doing at a local venue. He up front about what transformer coupling can and can't do.

If you get a chance take a look at that link I posted: http://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawamnet/studiohum.html
Note where Bill talks about neutral and ground bonding on page 23 of his paper. That story of the studio I dealt with is a prime example of why N/G bonding is an issue.

His comments on page 89 - I learned that the hard way. I thought that tying the shield at the input was correct... nope - due to the inherent filter he describes it should be tied at the driver side...

Where he mentions the 3 to 2 gnd lifters that were popular back in the day of pro audio. Good lord , that's so dangerous. In fact, the reason schaffer got into wireless guitar rigs - he was on the road with his GF (she was a road manager). - see this:
https://artiewayne.wordpress.com/tag/ken-schaffer-invents-wireless-microphone/

Ken remembers, “The idea to make the first wireless guitar stemmed from Lynne Volkman being my girlfriend… Lynne was the first female tour manager in rock ‘n roll, doing everyone from the Rolling Stones to the Who, James Taylor, Cat Stevens, Lynyrd Skynyrd… (For Peter Rudge and Nat Weiss)…. of course, up until then tour managers were always guys (who’d bring their girlfriends out for weekends). As I was Lynne’s boyfriend, roles were reversed., so instead of the tour manager’s girlfriend flying out to join the tour on weekends, it was me! If you go to http://www.nutcom.com/nyer and browse for “Rolling Stones,” it describes how Ace Frehley (Kiss) got electrocuted and I came to invent the wireless guitar/microphone.”


I do a lot of designing with Gary Stanfill - he was the pres of engineering at Vega Wireless, that did the Schaffer Vega wireless rigs. He mentioned a story about how Van Halen came off the road and dropped off their wireless packs to get rebuilt. Gary mentions that the tech replaced a bunch of opamps with some newer stuff when he rebuilt them, thinking he was doing them a favor.

They hated the new stuff - the tech had to put back in all the old crap.

 

[ajawamnet]

So the numbers you quoted are just for one specific example?

Nowadays SMPS supplies are a real problem...

 

[Julf]

Nowadays SMPS supplies are a real problem...

In what way?

 

[PaulD]

Nowadays SMPS supplies are a real problem...

Not true at all, that thinking is over 20 years old. Nowdays SMPS supplies are so well engineered they outperform linear supplies in every way - lower noise in all areas, lower output impedance etc etc. Jan Didden proved this with his Silent Switcher. Watch John Siau's discussion of cables from 8 mins where he shows that the Dac 2's switching supply is quieter than the Dac 1's linear PSU.

 

[digicidal]

Not true at all, that thinking is over 20 years old. Nowdays SMPS supplies are so well engineered they outperform linear supplies in every way - lower noise in all areas, lower output impedance etc etc. Jan Didden proved this with his Silent Switcher. Watch John Siau's discussion of cables from 8 mins where he shows that the Dac 2's switching supply is quieter than the Dac 1's linear PSU.

Star-quad cables mentioned in a video concerning EMI rejection characteristics.... @maty inbound in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

 

[LTig]

Bill's an amazing guy. I talked with him years ago concerning transformers for a custom thing we were doing at a local venue. He up front about what transformer coupling can and can't do.

If you get a chance take a look at that link I posted: http://www.ajawamnet.com/ajawamnet/studiohum.html

OMG

 

[Zog]

If you look at turntables (not needles, etc. - just the tables) and consider the actual, physical differences between any of the dozens of models between $500 and $5000... much more than half will be aesthetic or of marginal audible significance. Sure the platters will keep getting thicker and heavier as you move up, some at the upper end will allow multiple tonearms to be used, or use exotic hardwoods or nicer metals for the plinths, etc. but they will all basically have the same elements... yet use those subtle differences to justify a 1000% increase in price.

The key elements in a turntable are minimising vibration and steady sound. (Tonearm, cartridge, and phono stage are also factors but I will keep to the table as you suggest.)

Vibration. This is everywhere and it is the approaches to this that leads me to disagree with your 'marginal'. Vibrations come from ambient vibration in the room, footfall, feedback sound from the speakers, the bearing, and the stylus in the groove. What to do? (1) Good feet (I use the aftermarket Isonoes - they are essentially mini trampolines); (2) mass (I use granite); (3) damping (I use dynamat and sorbothane); (4) mag-lev bearings or direct contact (I use PEEK a hard species of teflon for the thrustpad); (5) table placement, eg wall mounted; (6) platter material (I have metal platters so I pour epoxy into them); (7) vibration from the motor.
The factors are: (a) how many of these vibrations do you address, (b) how do you address them and (c) to what extent - eg how much mass.

Platter speed. Two issues steadiness of speed, and closeness to the correct speed eg 45 rpm. Variables are (8) belt drive vs direct drive, (9) platter mass, (10) quality of motor, (11) isolation of the motor.

There are some other issues as well. In particular (12) the materials used. Some materials such as mpingo or ebony have a benign sound signature. Others like aluminium do not. Then there is (13) the quality of workmanship and (14) aesthetics.

So answers to your 1000% increase in price issue: take your pick - There is more than meets the eye; Don't buy; Don't care; Diminishing returns. My takeaway is; Don't complain.

Personally I could not afford a high end TT. Partly outright, and in any event even if I could I would rather invest in speakers that give a higher return on investment. What I have done is buy a few Japanese Direct Drives. They are very amenable to upgrading. Over the years I have put in a hundred or so hours working on them and also blown a few $K (went a bit mad on phono stages, but hey!) 99% of my solo listening is digital but well over 50% of shared listening is vinyl.

 

[trl]

It has nothing to do with wavelengths or Radio Frequency Characteristic Impedance. It's about low frequency end-to-end resistance. It's about power line caused leakage currents.

Bill Whitlock writes:

Leakage Current Effect - A Calculated Example
• A 25-foot cable (foil shield, #26 AWG drain wire) has an end-to-end shield resistance of 1 Ω
• Measured leakage current between the ungrounded devices is 316 μA (well under the UL limit of 750 μA)
• From Ohm’s law, noise voltage E = I x R = 316 μA x 1 Ω = 316 μV
• Consumer −10 dBV reference level = 316 mV
• Signal to Noise ratio = 20 x log (316 mV⁄316 μV) = 60 dB
• This is 35 dB worse than an audio CD!
• Same length of Belden #8241F cable, with its shield resistance of only 0.065 Ω, makes S⁄N 84 dB, an improvement of 24 dB!

From a noise perspective, shield resistance is the most important parameter of all.
How many times have you seen it specified on a data sheet or in advertising hype?
I rest my case about clueless manufacturers!

Bill Whitlock, 9/4/2012 Overview of Audio System Grounding & Interfacing page63

Not sure how these calculations will apply in audio domain, given that most decent audio devices are using separate audio ground and a grounding point on the chassis to inter-connect entire audio chain. Even if audio ground is directly connected to mains grounding the resistance will be so small that RCA cables might not induce audible noise; I actually removed the RCA grounding once and couldn't notice any noise being injected into my speakers. I guess this also depends on the input-stage resistance as well, but we can probably do a THD+N measurement with different RCA cables and see which one would be better.

I will read the entire book soon, but for the moment I spotted at page no. 29 something that doesn't fit with the reality much: the author explains that is the resistance from the outer case to the ground could be as high as 25 Ohms, which is insanely huge, and the circuit breaker will not trip, due to the fact that over-current to trip the protection is not achieved. My home grounding has 3.26 Ohms at the main entrance, and AFAIK the absolute max. is 4 Ohms, legally, so I'm not sure how the above scenario will ever apply in a normal house with a normal electrical wiring inside. Also, Residual Current Breakers are legally imperative to be installed, so at 30mA such devices will trip when 30mA will be achieved.

 

[Sal1950]

it describes how Ace Frehley (Kiss) got electrocuted and I came to invent the wireless guitar/microphone.”

Interesting the wording people use, He got a good jolt but wasn't "electrocuted", he didn't die, in fact after a short break he came out and finished the show. I think he may have even blown up the story for publicity later on, good PR it made.

 

[Tom C]

“The reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated.”

 

[Scriba]

how good are the Kabeldirekt - Cinch Audio Kabel? they are amazons choice (german) and have 80 % five star and 11 % 4 star rating.

 

[Speedskater]

I will read the entire book soon, but for the moment I spotted at page no. 29 something that doesn't fit with the reality much: the author explains that is the resistance from the outer case to the ground could be as high as 25 Ohms, which is insanely huge, and the circuit breaker will not trip, due to the fact that over-current to trip the protection is not achieved. My home grounding has 3.26 Ohms at the main entrance, and AFAIK the absolute max. is 4 Ohms, legally, so I'm not sure how the above scenario will ever apply in a normal house with a normal electrical wiring inside. Also, Residual Current Breakers are legally imperative to be installed, so at 30mA such devices will trip when 30mA will be achieved.

That's for an 'isolated ground rod' that has no other connections to the main grounding system. I would think that 25 Ohms to the Neutral is rather optimistic and would not be surprised if it's closer to 100 Ohms.

 

[Speedskater]

So the numbers you quoted are just for one specific example?

Aren't values like this always for the example?

 

[Julf]

That's for an 'isolated ground rod' that has no other connections to the main grounding system. I would think that 25 Ohms to the Neutral is rather optimistic and would not be surprised if it's closer to 100 Ohms.

Really? Isolated ground rods are of course irrelevant to audio - they exist for safety and to deal with static electricity. Neutral/common ground is what matters, and even 25 Ω is crazy high.