This audio cable business is getting out of hand...

[ahofer]

Maybe they allocate it differently, but that doesn't mean it is irrational or being done 'badly.'

I’m more sympathetic with what you are getting at than you might think. I would never begrudge someone their preferences.

But as a matter of personal judgment, I would never invest with someone who buys kilobuck cables and interconnects (if and until they can demonstrate a functional audio difference). Nor do I think they are they likely to be able to allocate capital in any other ways that increase productivity or human flourishing. So they spend it and someone else gets those resources. That’s the beauty of a free market.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Well, I've told this story before. When I bought my Da Vinci tonearm, it came with a $2500 cable upgrade (no, I didn't pay that, the tonearm was sold at about 30 percent market overall with the cable included).

The Swiss founder of Da Vinci in an interview said he did not believe in cables at all, as long as they were decent and did the job. The reason he marketed and charged high prices for the cables he offered is because if he didn't, he would lose credibility and customers amongst all the sniffing snobs and mincing audiophile types. It was unusual candor for a high end manufacturer.

I know somebody who is a senior engineer at a hifi company. He knows the whole cable thing is BS but accepts that most of his customers have lapped it up so doesn't risk losing custom by questioning it.
After all if you look at the bulk of the hifi enthusiast press it is accepted as true ffs.

 

[Scriba]

But i guess these are still one of the best RCA cables for that price right?

 

[digicidal]

But i guess these are still one of the best RCA cables for that price right?

That depends on whether you consider "the best" to be an equivalent evaluation to "no worse than". (And whether or not you include cost as part of that comparison).

I think with cables it's a similar situation to many products. I've had experiences with marketing products which didn't sell well until the price was increased substantially (started in the ~15% market average range, and repriced to the top 85% range). Nothing about the product itself changed whatsoever, but the perception of the customers was simply "this is too cheap to be good" initially vs. "this has to be one of the best because it's more expensive" subsequently.

If you look at turntables (not needles, etc. - just the tables) and consider the actual, physical differences between any of the dozens of models between $500 and $5000... much more than half will be aesthetic or of marginal audible significance. Sure the platters will keep getting thicker and heavier as you move up, some at the upper end will allow multiple tonearms to be used, or use exotic hardwoods or nicer metals for the plinths, etc. but they will all basically have the same elements... yet use those subtle differences to justify a 1000% increase in price.

 

[Speedskater]

But i guess these are still one of the best RCA cables for that price right?

The best regardless of price is the Blue Jeans Cable LC-1.

 

[FrantzM]

I know somebody who is a senior engineer at a hifi company. He knows the whole cable thing is BS but accepts that most of his customers have lapped it up so doesn't risk losing custom by questioning it.
After all if you look at the bulk of the hifi enthusiast press it is accepted as true ffs.

Same here

Audio engineers or designers who dare question the cable BS are rejected swiftly by the High End Audio industry. The late John Dunleavy of Dunleavy speakers fame was one of them... The late Dieter Burmester wasn't a fan either but shut down his anti-cable rethorics rather quickly ... in the late 80's when his product began to sell in the US ... I would not call this hypocrisy as long as the person keep it quiet .. rather Pragmatism .. many here in business have had situations of a customer rejecting their less expensive but higher performance offering in favor of more celebrated and more expensive offering from a competitor ...

 

[Julf]

The best regardless of price is the Blue Jeans Cable LC-1.

Best in what way?

 

[Speedskater]

Best in what way?

Lowest end-to-end resistance of the shield. Also low capacitance and low price. But there are other cables that come close enough to not matter. Like the Belden 1505F & 1695A or Canare LV-77S cables.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I've had experiences with marketing products which didn't sell well until the price was increased substantially (started in the ~15% market average range, and repriced to the top 85% range)

An art gallery owner I know told me the first thing to try if a painting isn't selling is to double the price. It often works.

 

[PierreV]

Best in what way?

Audiophilologists are still divided as far as the meaning of "best" is concerned. While it bears an uncanny resemblance to its English language homonym, the consensus is that it is best translated as "the one I own".

 

[Julf]

Lowest end-to-end resistance of the shield. Also low capacitance and low price. But there are other cables that come close enough to not matter. Like the Belden 1505F & 1695A or Canare LV-77S cables.

How does that resistance and capacitance affect the audio signal?

 

[Jimster480]

I use GhentAudio.... there are 2 wire and 4wire versions of their cables. They look good and work fine and they are relatively cheap and come in sizes that make the stack look clean.

 

[ajawamnet]

How does that resistance and capacitance affect the audio signal?

It affects the transmission line characteristics of the cable - the lumped values of the cap and resistance make an RC circuit that will determine the characteristic impedance of the cable. This will all depend, among a multitiude of other things, what the input and output impedance of the circuits that are being connected.

See this book:
https://archive.org/details/TheoryAndProblemsOfTransmissionLines
Direct PDF link
https://archive.org/download/TheoryAndProblemsOfTransmissionLines/Chipman-TransmissionLines.pdf

Also see this:
https://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedias/transmission-line-model

"The generalized lumped-element model of a transmission line can be used to calculate characteristic impedance, phase velocity, and both parts of the propagation constant (phase and attenuation). The model uses an infinitesimally small section of a transmission line with four elements as shown below. Here the series resistance, series inductance, shunt conductance and shunt capacitance are all normalized per unit length (denoted by the "prime" notation). "

So what I see is a lot of people that say this is better than this, when it really depends on the circuit topology.

As I've mentioned before, arbitrarily picking an interconnect for something like this tube:

Inside this amplifier:

Driving this load:

And not using something like this:

Will result in non-optimal transmission of electrons. And most probably melt. I've seen the stuff that guy is holding just vaporize due to a slightly funky load.

And possibly could result in this:

Tho this was due to a poorly designed tube shelf, but quite possibly was initiated by a bad load - possibly a bad RF transmission line. We had one of these and the sliding loading and tuning contacts would spark if high enough VSWR were encountered. Nasty. That RCA BTF was called "the flame thrower"

 

[ajawamnet]

BTW - here's some 9 kW FM antenna's all fried up
http://www.engineeringradio.us/blog/2011/10/the-eri-lpx2e-rototiller-fm-antenna/

 

[jsrtheta]

I’ll play the devil’s advocate for a second...

After all, isn’t the whole High End Audio schtick just another way of wealth redistribution? I somehow doubt the single mother of 3 that sweeps floors in D.C. is much of a $15,000 USB cable customer. I would also think those $15,000 USB cable manufacturers/distributors don’t sell that many cables to qualify as stinkin’ rich.

And why would buying a $15,000 USB cable be more outrageous than buying a $500,000 watch (and no, not necessary one of those made out of 24K gold with diamonds)? I hear little grumbling about watches, although I doubt they beat a $100 quartz watch in their main function, time keeping.

In the jungle, as repulsive as they are, hyenas play an important role in the ecosystem, sanitizing and recycling the organic waste. High End Audio companies and cable crooks help rotate the money, the basics of the economy.

I am no economist, but I have studied it a bit, and I'm sorry, but I must have missed the lecture on the necessary role fraud and theft play in a good economy. In fact, it seems that economists have always said that the economy is self-correcting, because people will obviously act in their best interests, and will refuse to trade with vendors of poorly made or fraudulent goods. I mean, I've heard that all my life.

And still the high end cable fraud persists. I guess credulity and ignorance play a role in the economy, but I've never heard it as simply the way things are suppose to work. I don't really expect any economist to argue with a straight face that in this context, fraud is just nifty.

Fraud is a type of theft. Simple. It is not simply "rotating the money", unless "rotating the money" is the middle finger of the "invisible hand". Otherwise, we could make the same argument to justify money laundering.

As a former prosecutor, I never had a thief defend himself by claiming "It's not theft. It's merely rotating the money".

 

[Julf]

It affects the transmission line characteristics of the cable - the lumped values of the cap and resistance make an RC circuit that will determine the characteristic impedance of the cable. This will all depend, among a multitiude of other things, what the input and output impedance of the circuits that are being connected.

Those all matter at radio frequencies and long distances. How about audio frequencies at the distances fond in domestic audio?

 

[valkeryie]

Found an incredibly accurate way to evaluate Interconnects. Need a preamp with a remote and multiple inputs. Place two different cables between a source - in my case a CD player with two outputs - and the preamp. Warm up and start playing music - your favorite tunes that you know well. Then using the preamp remote switch source feeds.

This tells you immediately what IF ANYTHING - the cable is doing. At least on your own rig.

My own experience - comparing a large number of varying price cables? The different cables - for the most part - do NOTHING. A cheap Radio Shack IC compared to a Kimber "Hero"? NO DIFFERENCE. Or at least none that anybody could discern. We did hear a slight difference between a Kimber KCAG - solid silver IC - and a cheap Radio Shack offering. Mostly the silver seemed to possess more treble energy - zippier sounding. But the rest? All the same. No discernible sonic difference between a $4 IC and a $4000 IC.

Even with the solid silver IC the difference was fleeting - very small and one had to listen closely to tell the difference.

Conclusion? Expensive IC cabling is a waste of money.

 

[Julf]

Found an incredibly accurate way to evaluate Interconnects. Need a preamp with a remote and multiple inputs. Place two different cables between a source - in my case a CD player with two outputs - and the preamp. Warm up and start playing music - your favorite tunes that you know well. Then using the preamp remote switch source feeds.

This tells you immediately what IF ANYTHING - the cable is doing. At least on your own rig.

Only if you do it double blind.

 

[beefkabob]

It affects the transmission line characteristics of the cable - the lumped values of the cap and resistance make an RC circuit that will determine the characteristic impedance of the cable. This will all depend, among a multitiude of other things, what the input and output impedance of the circuits that are being connected.
...

High power antennae are not the same as home stereos, just as Formula 1 cars are not the same as my dad's VW. Do a blind ABX with cables. Don't rely on the theoretical.

 

[Julf]

High power antennae are not the same as home stereos, just as Formula 1 cars are not the same as my dad's VW. Do a blind ABX with cables. Don't rely on the theoretical.

And even the theory tells us that at audio frequencies and reasonable distances, it matters squat all.