This audio cable business is getting out of hand...

[solderdude]

Very repeatable. I did three captures with each of the three different cables, alternating cables in between to make sure there was no issue with electronics warm-up or additional external interference for any specific cable measurement.

Null tests between measurements of the same cable type are all pretty much as I would expect them to be, near the limit of my DAC/ADC measurement capability, just a tad worse than -110dB or so. Differences between different cable types were consistently higher. The difference can also be heard on DeltaWave playback where the delta file can be sent through the audio system. Of course, I had to raise the volume about +90dB to be able to hear it

Cool... but below any audible thresholds it seems.
I expect the differences to be linear.

I did null analog (many years ago) but..
A: it is really hard to get an exact null electrically and requires course and fine tuning pots
B: with longer cables the time delay caused higher frequencies to not null perfectly so gave skewed results.

B should not apply with your software.

Interested how Amir fairs as he can look a lot deeper in amplitude without hitting the noise floor.

 

[solderdude]

And now, the question for specialists: should the cable burn-in be done in series or in parallel?

Do you mean does it need voltages applied and if so what amplitudes and frequency(ies) ?
Or does it need to carry currents and if so how high should they be?
Does one need to 'load' the cables with a certain load (so voltage and current) ?
Does the temperature matter ?
Does the humidity matter ?

So many questions about burn-in.

 

[Sal1950]

Funny, this is exactly the reaction I got when asking you simple, objective questions. Subsequently, safe space was requested and granted. No more questions for Sal, lest one risk swarm and/or ban.

Links please?

 

[pkane]

Cool... but below any audible thresholds it seems.
I expect the differences to be linear.

I did null analog (many years ago) but..
A: it is really hard to get an exact null electrically and requires course and fine tuning pots
B: with longer cables the time delay caused higher frequencies to not null perfectly so gave skewed results.

B should not apply with your software.

Interested how Amir fairs as he can look a lot deeper in amplitude without hitting the noise floor.

Posted a null test comparison of three interconnects I had on-hand.

 

[MZKM]

Let’s get back to the laughs regarding audio cable BS.

https://www.nordost.com/faqs-break-in.php

How long do my cables have to break in?
Normally, we recommend at least 168 hours. However, our Reference level cables require at least 336 hours.

What is the best way to break in my cables?
The best way to break in your cables is to have them burned in on the Nordost VIDAR machine by an Authorized Dealer. Most dealers will do this for a small charge and many offer this service when you buy your cables from them. This is another reason to buy your cable from an Authorized Nordost Dealer.

What happens during break in?
Considerable changes occur in the cable during the break in process. Any gases that were trapped between the insulation and the conductors during manufacturing are dissipated. Additionally, the insulation material charges up. The diode effects of the conductor will be more pronounced after 168 hours of break in. During this time the cable takes on a direction.

How long does break in last?
If the cable has not been used for more than one month, it will benefit from being broken in on the VIDAR. It is a good idea to bring your cables back to your local dealer every year and have them broken in again.

 

[VintageFlanker]

It is a good idea to bring your cables back to your local dealer every year and have them broken in again.

Is that even legal? Such a level of fraud...

From the same "company" : https://www.nordost.com/accessories/eco-3x.php

 

[solderdude]

Should I burn in my cables before or after I have them cryo treated ?

How does that benefit audio?
Different metals used in audio connectors and cable respond differently to cryogenic processing. Generally speaking we have found that the lower the initial quality of the treated part, lets say OFC compared to OCC, the greater the perceived improvement. Cryogenic processing has improved the performance of most all the audio related items we have experimented with.

The most commonly noted improvements are:

• Deeper, wider, more three dimensional soundstage
• More articulate bass reproduction
• Smoother, more refined high frequency response
• Improved dynamic range
• Lower noise floor

 

[MZKM]

And another:
https://www.audioquest.com/cables/speaker-cables/mythical-creature-series/dragon-zero

All previous attempts to address this issue chose to move the speaker cable’s characteristic impedance to a value closer to the nominal impedance of the speakers. All such attempts failed because a speaker’s impedance changes with frequency, and the amplifier’s output impedance is something else altogether.

What? Isn't it most commonly advised to get as low of an impedance (more specifically resistance) as possible to obtain a good Damping Factor (to get at least a DF of 20)?

By eliminating the Mythical Creatures speaker cable’s characteristic impedance,

Pretty sure that’s impossible. You can make it very low by using a large gauge, but you can’t actually make it zero, unless using only a few significant figures.

AudioQuest has always stated that all cables cause damage because the output is never as good as the input. However, by eliminating a speaker cable’s characteristic impedance, AQ’s ZERO Technology is an unprecedented step towards reducing that damage.

Never heard that marketing BS in the cable world yet, basic cables are actually damaging your system.

The result is greater dynamic contrast, better audio transient response, and bass slam that are rendered seemingly without effort because the cable is not electrically restricting (strangling) the music.

Solid conductors prevent strand interaction, a major source of cable distortion. Extremely high-purity Perfect-Surface Silver minimizes distortion caused by the grain boundaries that exist within any metal conductor, nearly eliminating harshness and greatly increasing clarity compared to OFHC, OCC, 8N and other coppers.

https://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables
Don’t know which distortion they are talking about, but solid core has worse skin effect than stranded.

When possible, running separate cables to the treble and bass “halves” of a speaker considerably reduces distortion. BiWiring keeps the large magnetic fields associated with bass energy out of the treble cable, allowing the delicate upper frequencies to travel a less magnetically disturbed path, like taking the waves out of the water when you swim.

Not my field, but sounds like B.S., would like someone to chime in.

Rocket models of AQ speaker cable have two autonomous internal constructions, facilitating proper BiWiring within a single cable.

Autonomous?

 

[amirm]

https://www.nordost.com/faqs-break-in.php
[....]

What happens during break in?
Considerable changes occur in the cable during the break in process. Any gases that were trapped between the insulation and the conductors during manufacturing are dissipated.

This animated gif for was made for this comment:

 

[MZKM]

Should I burn in my cables before or after I have them cryo treated ?

How does that benefit audio?
Different metals used in audio connectors and cable respond differently to cryogenic processing. Generally speaking we have found that the lower the initial quality of the treated part, lets say OFC compared to OCC, the greater the perceived improvement. Cryogenic processing has improved the performance of most all the audio related items we have experimented with.

The most commonly noted improvements are:

• Deeper, wider, more three dimensional soundstage
• More articulate bass reproduction
• Smoother, more refined high frequency response
• Improved dynamic range
• Lower noise floor

What happens when the cable warms back up to room temperature? Or are they saying it permanently alters it, like trying to re-freeze melted ice cream?

 

[PierreV]

Thanks for the VIDAR info. Endless entertainment guaranteed. See here for example

http://pymblehifi.com.au/docs/Nordost_Cable_Burning.htm

"The design of the circuitry also has a unique feature which drives electrons above the conductor into the dielectric area, or insulation."

"The VIDAR uses some well-known scientific principles to derive the best possible performance, both technically and sonically, from any cable."

And shouldn't we be grateful that the Earth conveniently rotates in exactly 1/7th of the time it takes a Nordost cable to burn in?

 

[pozz]

Starquads have been demonstrated to show some serious EMI reductions by Benchmark.

I think in their tests they were looking at differences around -110dB, if not lower. Still interesting, of course.

 

[Saffuria]

hi I'm Stefano and I am an audio addict

 

[g29]

What happens during break in?

Considerable changes occur in the cable during the break in process. Any gases that were trapped between the insulation and the conductors during manufacturing are dissipated. Additionally, the insulation material charges up. The diode effects of the conductor will be more pronounced after 168 hours of break in. During this time the cable takes on a direction.

I didn't know cables passed gas. Is AOC aware of this ? Will audiophile cables be outlawed to prevent the world from ending in 10 years ?

 

[GrimSurfer]

It's nitrous oxide (laughing gas). That's why everyone who works in the audiophile cable business is laughing all the way to the bank.

The gas dissipates by the time it reaches consumer, for whom the rip off is no laughing matter.

 

[TG1]

How do you get to determine whether these things are worth it without spending a fortune trialling them? Other than chucking all of your gear into the boot of the car and setting it up at a dealer's shop I don't see a way. Can't rely on reviews because one review says five grand for a speaker cable is a sensible investment while another review says anything over £40 is nuts.
i made some audio cable out of magnet wire and sellotape and convinced myself it was an improvement, but then I had spent time making them, and so was invested before I tried them. They were probably exactly the same, since both were (presumably) good grade copper wire.

However, on a side note, I just made up some speaker cable using Sharke signal cable and the speaker hum that has dogged me for ages has vanished. That must be the shielding, surely. I did move the turntable at the same time to a new location but I don't see how that would account for it.

 

[Blumlein 88]

hi I'm Stefano and I am an audio addict

Welcome as this appears to be your first post. Not sure we can cure your addiction. Now sure we want to either. In any case look forward to reading your inputs.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Not my field, but sounds like B.S., would like someone to chime in.

Don't worry, this is absolute nonsense. There is no way in this universe, that any amplifier would separate treble and bass at the output... The speaker's filters will do... At the end of the trip. Whatever anyone use bi-wiring or not from two outputs or only one, there will be always treble and bass travelling in the same cable right to speaker input.

 

[DonH56]

Like many audio myths, there is a grain of truth... Separating (bi-wiring) means the current flow is different in the two cables even though the voltage is essentially the same. That means the magnetic fields are different per Faraday's Law. Bass current to the woofer, treble current to the tweeter, thus separating the energy. Does nothing to help the amplifier, naturally, so is of great benefit only if your speaker cables are small enough so that voltage (IR, current*resistance) drop is large enough to matter, or the impedance of the cable is large enough to affect the frequency response of the speaker. Either way I'd prefer to go with a larger gauge speaker wire instead. Some cables may intentionally alter the response; that is not the way I would introduce a tone control into my system but to each his own.

 

[MZKM]

Like many audio myths, there is a grain of truth... Separating (bi-wiring) means the current flow is different in the two cables even though the voltage is essentially the same. That means the magnetic fields are different per Faraday's Law. Bass current to the woofer, treble current to the tweeter, thus separating the energy. Does nothing to help the amplifier, naturally, so is of great benefit only if your speaker cables are small enough so that voltage (IR, current*resistance) drop is large enough to matter, or the impedance of the cable is large enough to affect the frequency response of the speaker. Either way I'd prefer to go with a larger gauge speaker wire instead. Some cables may intentionally alter the response; that is not the way I would introduce a tone control into my system but to each his own.

Isn’t this only after a crossover? Otherwise, both cables out of the amp would be carrying the same signal.