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"Things that cannot be measured"

Robert394

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Can we measure:

-Sound stage depth
-Sound stage width
-Harshness

I think most/many people who have listened to speakers will have observed differences in the above characteristics between speaker systems... can they be measured though?
 

Robert394

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In fairness, here's something like a study on claimed cable properties on a $5000 Audioquest speaker cable. What's more disturbing to me about this than even the measurement issues is the lack of engineering knowledge suggested by the design choices (the "DBS system" raising capacitance for example at 25:00). Yikes.

What's also confounding is after watching that video I decided to do another A/B test of my Niagara 1200 vs. a basic TrippLite surge protector or the wall socket (I bought the 1200 with the intention of returning it if I didn't like it -- like I did two Furmans and the PS Audio Dectect before it -- but actually thought it improved sound quality after a fair amount of testing vs. a TrippLite/wall socket and so kept it) -- I still think the sound quality is more pleasing coming from the Niagara than from the wall. Imagined or not, I don't know. I would sell it in a second though if I thought the sound from the wall was better.

The salesman in this video (and a few other tests I've seen on Youtube) show improvement using a "main's noise analyzer" vs the wall:
 

audio2design

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In fairness, here's something like a study on claimed cable properties on a $5000 Audioquest speaker cable. What's more disturbing to me about this than even the measurement issues is the lack of engineering knowledge suggested by the design choices


I don't always design a cable to grossly increase the potential for triboelectric effect, but when I do, I hang a 72V battery off the shield.
 

Blumlein 88

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I don't always design a cable to grossly increase the potential for triboelectric effect, but when I do, I hang a 72V battery off the shield.
I wish I had one of these cables. For anyone who does, pretty easy if you have a recording interface to test it for triboelectric effect. Hook it up to the microphone input, and bend it a bit. Then maybe play loud music and see if it is picked up by the cable at a low level. I doubt even with the 72 volt battery it would be high enough in level to matter, but would be an interesting test.
 

krabapple

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I understand what you mean by "if you fail often enough, you asymptotically approach absolute proof." My question was -- where's the "failing often enough" you're referring to? Are you referring to studies or something else?

In the contentious matter of high-rez versus CD not only are there 'studies' but there are enough of them that someone could even attempt a meta-analysis* of their aggregate results. "You can look it up" as the old saying goes.

If you're looking for 'studies' of cable sound, there are a few, though not academic.

Ditto amp sound.

The properties of wire and electronics and the human auditory sensorium are well enough understood that funding to find the basis of so-called 'cable sound' or 'amp sound' (beyond the simple explanation : cognitive bias) would probably have to come from a fanatical and deep-pocketed audiophile. Actual physicists, engineers, audiologists, and other types whose fields are appropriate to the task, likely find the idea too farcical, and too unlikely to get funded, to merit a grant application otherwise.

If you're looking for 'studies' of speaker preference, the Harman group has that covered, in JAES articles and talks. Summarizing and drawing conclusions from research into the behavior of speakers in rooms is the topic of Floyd Toole's book.

What are you looking for studies of, exactly?

(*Though when you do that, you'd better be very careful about what data are included and excluded...and make sure that choice properly informs your conclusions. So far that hasn't been done)
 
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Andysu

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In fairness, here's something like a study on claimed cable properties on a $5000 Audioquest speaker cable. What's more disturbing to me about this than even the measurement issues is the lack of engineering knowledge suggested by the design choices (the "DBS system" raising capacitance for example at 25:00). Yikes.

The salesman in this video (and a few other tests I've seen on Youtube) show improvement using a "main's noise analyzer" vs the wall:
What the. A battery on a speaker cable but, but, but wouldn't that push the cone forward or reverse inwards if the battery was miss-wired what the ....
Only time I use a battery is to check the wiring is not reversed due to my Cats running around and often can happen I reversed the wiring on the connectors for the amps and I would use the batt, to check for forward cone motion not have it stuck on while playing movies with a constant 1.5v, what are these audiophiles smoking and drinking?
 

solderdude

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A battery on a speaker cable but, but, but wouldn't that push the cone forward or reverse inwards if the battery was miss-wired what the ....
Only time I use a battery is to check the wiring is not reversed due to my Cats running around and often can happen I reversed the wiring on the connectors for the amps and I would use the batt, to check for forward cone motion not have it stuck on while playing movies with a constant 1.5v, what are these audiophiles smoking and drinking?

The battery is not connected to the speaker wires. There is no current flowing either. There is a third wire connected to nothing, just running in parallel and the voltage on the wire is 'biassing' the isolator of the cable... they claim it performs (not measurable) audio miracles.
 

ctrl

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Can we measure:
-Sound stage depth
-Sound stage width
-Harshness
I think most/many people who have listened to speakers will have observed differences in the above characteristics between speaker systems... can they be measured though?
The correlations to measurements are there, but not as black/white or 0/1 results, but rather as statistical probabilities with sometimes large individual scatter and interaction of several causes for an observed effect.

a) Sound stage width
The perceived stage width is related to the horizontal directivity and radiation (and the listening room, respectively early reflections) of the loudspeaker - but not only, also the low bass plays a role.
This is easily measurable, the problem is the interpretation of the measurements, especially if the loudspeakers measure similarly.


b) Sound stage depth
The vertical radiation of the loudspeaker should play a role here (especially the ceiling reflection) but not independent of other influences (horizontal radiation, room reflections).
The directional bands introduced by J. Blauert can explain effects such as perceived stage depth and height. But also here large individual differences can occur.

Blauert [1] demonstrated that the direction of a sound image for a 1/3 octave band noise is a
function of the center frequency only and does not depend on the source elevation angle. He
referred to the frequency band by which the direction of sound image is determined as the
directional band.
1621075197137.png


Sources: Individual differences in directional bands
Sound_Localization_in_the_Median_Plane
Spatial Perception

For stereo listening and further simplification, you can "mix" vertical and horizontal listening:
With loudspeaker stereophony (i.e. in the horizontal plane) the original direction-determining bands v (front), h (back) and o (top) of the median plane can be easily reinterpreted as two directionless hearing sensations “ present ” and “ diffuse ”. This is also noteworthy for the equalizer settings for the sound processing in stereophony and the surround sound of broadband signals. Where:
  • front v = present in the sound , close, direct, superficial - this can be achieved by increasing the frequencies 300 to 400 Hz and 3 to 4 kHz as well as lowering frequencies by 1 kHz.
  • back h (and above o) = diffuse , distant and spatial in the sound - this can be achieved by increasing the frequencies by 1 kHz
Source: directional bands introduced by J. Blauert

Again, the measurements are less the problem than the complex interplay of different effects and their interpretation.


c) Harshness

Harshness in loudspeakers can have many different causes (mechanical causes, distortion, radiation errors, tuning errors).

The most common cause of harshness I have found in loudspeaker tuning is the critical frequency range around the ear canal resonance (2.2-3kHz, 2.7kHz is often cited as the average). Even small humps in the sound power (or horiz. ER, PIR) in this frequency range very often leads to the sound being perceived as harsh, especially if the cause is the horizontal radiation of the speaker.
But if this frequency range is cut back too much, sound coloration occurs and it affects the perceived stage depth (e.g. "voices" are perceived as less present, see above) - it's a balancing act.


I keep repeating myself ;) IMO, it is not so much the measurements that are a problem, but the complexity and mass of the measurement data and their interpretation
.
 
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Scgorg

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BrEpBrEpBrEpBrEp

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Phos

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On a PC centric forum I used to frequent there was this guy who was convinced that by changing a bunch of random system settings you could substantially improve mouse latency/feel. I knew he was full of it when he started telling people to go into sound settings in the control panel and tell windows your stereo speakers weren't full range. While I'm not sure whether Windows would actually do anything with that setting (if it doesn't think you have a subwoofer hooked up there isn't a lot it can do), there's no reason to expect that to reduce any sort of system latency.
 

Hayabusa

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I wish I had one of these cables. For anyone who does, pretty easy if you have a recording interface to test it for triboelectric effect. Hook it up to the microphone input, and bend it a bit. Then maybe play loud music and see if it is picked up by the cable at a low level. I doubt even with the 72 volt battery it would be high enough in level to matter, but would be an interesting test.

And also terminate the cable with 8 ohm load :)
 

j_j

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On a PC centric forum I used to frequent there was this guy who was convinced that by changing a bunch of random system settings you could substantially improve mouse latency/feel. I knew he was full of it when he started telling people to go into sound settings in the control panel and tell windows your stereo speakers weren't full range. While I'm not sure whether Windows would actually do anything with that setting (if it doesn't think you have a subwoofer hooked up there isn't a lot it can do), there's no reason to expect that to reduce any sort of system latency.

It would toss in a highpass filter so as to not blow out your 1.5" computer speakers, at least in later-day setups.
 

TLEDDY

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I have a friend that I consider a genius in building/modifying Hi-fi electronics.

He has made solid state amps that measure flat AND tube amps that do not…

His comment is that no matter the measurements, the tubes return the music.

I attribute this to the second harmonics… “de gustibus non disputandum est!”
 

BluesDaddy

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I have a friend that I consider a genius in building/modifying Hi-fi electronics.

He has made solid state amps that measure flat AND tube amps that do not…

His comment is that no matter the measurements, the tubes return the music.

I attribute this to the second harmonics… “de gustibus non disputandum est!”
Depending on what he means by "returns the music", unless he's heard the master on the equipment it was completed with he doesn't have a frame of reference to judge. What we know is that the signal coming out of a tube Amp is not an accurate representation of what went in so at best it means he likes the distortion tubes provide.
 

ahofer

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One must not contradict the genius friend. Semper Ubi Sub Ubi.

Alas, this is really, really old ground at ASR.
 
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